September 2013- We've managed to hold them in!

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Hi all! Providing the ladies who are currently in hospital don't give birth before the last 20 posts in our old thread, we've made it to a new one with babies all still staying put for now!

Here's the stats thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/antenatal_clubs/a1694946-September-2013-STATS-THREAD

Welcome newbies! If anyone wants to join the FB group (better for sharing documents and pictures), please message myself or jennimoo with your real life name and email address and we can add you to the group!

:-)

That may be the case triple but I've been on enough courses to know that the fact someone has 'been on a course' does not mean they are necessarily better than someone who hasn't....

Have to say that the conflicting breastfeeding advice given by different midwives when I had DS1 and DS2 was pretty unbelievable - from doing the force baby head onto boob thing, to syringing out colostrum, to attaching me to a hospital grade pump - all less than 24 hours after a c section.
All this in a unicef certified hospital.
Unfortunately, I hadn't found MN then and after feeding DS2 for over 2 years I think I'll be able to be a bit more assertive this time!

Awe derpress lovely lovely pic of your 2 cuties :)

I've never been to an nct class and so can't agree on disagree on bf advice, but I can definitely say that some of the general 'advice' that my MW gave me (same woman who took our classes) was complete and utter
rubbish and I seriously doubt that it is in accordance with any standard/ guideline/ rule book.

Well of course you're right Ready.

But at least if you know they have actually received the training, it's better than someone who hasn't iyswim.

I suppose the only way to be sure is to go direct to IBCLC level, but that might mean paying privately in practice.

Personally I think it's shocking that women should even feel they have to be 'on guard' against poor advice from HCP at one of the most vunerable times in their lives. MW should be BF experts, I agree. But no point pretending they all are, when currently that's not the case.

I will get off my soap box now. But lack of easy to access, correct BF support in the NHS is a real worry of mine.

I'm very pro-NHS. I love our maternity hospital, and all the staff I know (bar one who's not there anymore) are fantastic. Last time round my waters were broken without the procedure being explained, and without my expressed consent. I thrashed about in pain, and the hook thing got caught in my cervix. Everything went rapidly down hill from there and I ended up having an EMCS.

When I told my current MW about this, she was horrified. She knew that things had gone awry with the waters being broken, but not the details. My birth plan now clearly states that I will NOT be having my waters broken, and there are to be NO internal exams without clear, informed consent given each and every time, and that they are to be avoided entirely if possible. I was very proud that I didn't cry throughout that whole appt! :)

I think the problem is that our midwives are so busy, and most wards are short staffed. It's all too easy to forget that that patient might not have had the procedures fully explained to them already. I think it's good that women are reminded that it's ok to ask for more information if a procedure is being suggested.

OOH just to throw my two pence in.............I havent been on a NCT course, just the two nights that the NHS suppiled at my local centre. I found the midwife at it brillant and she was very reassuring. I have lots of friends who have been totally stressed as their lo's didnt want to bf. The midwife at the class explained that you havent failed as a mother if you have to use a bottle!

However on the radio recently, there was a debate about childbirth etc and there where lots of NCT people ringing in, talking about fathers shouldnt be allowed in the delivery suite, failing as a mother if you cant bf and c sections being the devils work. This is the only NCT stuff Ive heard other than a quick google, but it all seemed a bit nuts to me!

This is my first kid, so I dont know what will happen, but if Im in labour (with dh present) and something goes wrong, I think the drs and mws know alot more than what I have learnt from reading a few books and googling stuff, so I will go with whatever they suggest. I wouldnt go to the dentist after reading a book and start telling them how to do a root canal!!

I understand that some mw/drs can be a bit brash and just rush in and how some people might be offended by this, but I suppose everyones different!!

Wow, thats more like £3 quids worth!!! Sorry

You'd expect a dentist to give you a choice between implants and a bridge though. Or tell you you need a filling and offer to do it at the time or make a future appointment before just jabbing you with anaesthetic and starting to drill... same should apply to midwifery or obstetrics imo.

The course my dh was at with the midwifery lecturer advised him to ask:
Do we have time to talk about this?
What are the benefits?
What are the risks?
What is the alternative?
What happens if we do nothing for now?

There's nothing confrontational about asking those questions, or implying that you don't trust your HCP, it's just about being involved in the decisions.

When it comes to BFing and later weaning advice the thing that upset me was that so often the supposedly official advice does not match the current NHS advice, but I'm mainly thinking Health visitors... Being told I should wean DD at 5 months as she didn't sleep well for example...

I'm a bit worried about the whole BF thing too, to be honest, and all the books just say to ask for a lactation consultant if there's a problem. But do these people exist in normal NHS hospitals? and if not, where do you find one?? Our BF counsellor from the NCT (came in to do a BF session) was absolutely dreadful - all the horror stories about the NCT multiplied by a million - so I won't be contacting her.

Having said that in general I was really pleasantly surprised by the NCT classes in general, and our tutor was great. Compared to the NHS classes I also did these were much better for giving statistics and figures so we could make up our own minds. And they were strangely less anti-doctor than the midwife-led ones (wonder if there's a bit of a doctor/midwife turf war going on here really that explains a lot).

I still don't really get the whole line about avoiding the medicalisation of birth, as if all the consultant obstetricians in the region are just waiting outside the labour room door to pounce on an unsuspecting woman with a perfectly boring and normal labour and test out their skills on her. I've always assumed they're rather busy and generally have more interesting things to do. More generally though, medicalisation suits me fine, but I see that this might not be the case for everyone.

On another note, people with the angelcare monitor (or similar) are you setting it up in the main cot or in the moses basket? I guess when the baby's asleep in the moses basket she'll be next to me so supposedly I would hear her/be aware if anything happened. But I'm just not convinced about this if I'm asleep. But then in the main cot (for daytime naps etc) she'll obviously be in another room. Are you supposed to move the monitor around, wherever the baby is? or buy two? or calm the fuck down and stop being so paranoid

at present it's in the main cot...

Mooster - try googling for La Leche League in your area for breastfeeding advice if you can't find any through the nhs.

We have nhs breastfeeding clinics in my area but some of the lactation consultants also volunteer with the local LLL. Between the nhs and LLL there's bf support clinics somewhere in Edinburgh each weekday but I think that's rare.

LLL in my area has two people who can be phoned up 24/7 for advice and one meet up per week.

Ask your MW at your next appointment what there is in your area so you can have the relevant info to hand in case you need it.

Some people think the LLL can be 'militant' but in our area as I say some of the exact same people work in bf for the nhs and LLL so i wouldn't always assume the LLL will be too far out there :)

Can someone explain a bit more about avoiding unnecessary internal exams? Is the downside just that they are not necessary and might throw you off your 'groove'? How would you decide if it is necessary or not?

Mooster I'm going to set up the monitor in the Moses basket and just keep it there, I don't think baby will be sleeping in her main cot for quite some time. I think once you've chosen all your settings etc you can switch it on and off (to carry around) and it should still keep them.

moonster
I entirely plan to learn how to use the angelcare whilst on mat leave..... :)
Probably. So will make a decision then! I can sleep through the cat clawing my feet asking for breakfast at 5am, so I think I'll probably set it up in the moses basket!!

jammy - There's a general rule of thumb that in active labour you should be expected to dilate around 0.5-1cm per hour. But this is very much just an average.. if you were to be examined every hour then you would find it difficult to accurately assess progress and if it's a different midwife are you confident that she can measure with her fingers to the nearest half cm? If you are deemed to be 'not progressing' then interventions to speed up dilation might be suggested when actually your body might be doing fine at it's own pace. Also, how depressing might you find it to discover you've only dilated less than a cm in two hours for example? I personally don't want to feel like a 'watched kettle' as I think I would get disheartened. I've written in my birth plan that I want minimal and necessary examinations (in our MLU it's about every four hours I think). Also I want to be in the pool so internals will really break my groove if I have to get out. And dh was told by the mw lecturer on his course that there can often be a pause in the rate of dilation at around 6-7cm dilation and too many exams around then can lead to panic about 'failure to progress' unnecessarily.

On the other hand, somebody else, with a differnet psychology to me might prefer to be checked very regularly and always know exactly how things are progressing. Which is why it should be a personal choice.

Oh, and in terms of deciding how 'necessary' they are - I would trust the MW but I would ask her why she wants to do it and if it's necessary. If she says 'just to see how you're doing' I'd say well do we have to? If she says it's because of x, y, z reason which sounds more necessary then i'd be fine with it.

Don't know if it has been mentioned already, but an experienced midwife can tell how far along you are in terms of the stages just by watching you, rather than having to have a furtle in there examining your cervix. However, she can't do this unless she is with you the whole time - if she has to go out and see other people, popping back to see you every so often as happens in hospital, she won't have the frame of reference to be watching your progression. (Some people get a blue line on their bum crack which shows exactly the dilation too!). There is a mood shift that almost everyone shows when they go through transition - different for everyone, but could be suddenly being angry or weepy or wide-eyed where previously you had been very introverted or zoned-out.

There are many non-invasive techniques to assess progression, it's just that cervical examination has become the default. It would certainly put me off my stride. For DS's birth, I was examined quite rudely and officiously by a very grumpy MW when I came into hospital but that was at the end of a long latent labour and everything was disheartening - I was hardly 2cm and DH was packed off home, but they "wouldn't let" me go as I was 41+6 and "should" have come in that morning for induction (I'd phoned to say I was in labour already thanksawfullyfortheoffer and I'd come in when I wanted).

Then after a couple of hours of pacing the corridors and figures of eight on the birthing ball I was 3/4cm ish - enough to call DH back in and let me into the MLU. Once I was a bit more I could go in the pool, have G&A and generally be left to get on with it - left in the sense I wasn't examined, but the MW had to stay there at all times for pool safety reasons. She shone a torch into the pool, sometimes with a mirror under water to be able to see what was going on but never had to make me get into a position that was convenient for her. Once my waters had broken under water and I was in or through transition, I think she may have examined me very gently to see if the head was crowning and not presenting in some other difficult orientation like his brow. After that it got very hands on and I can't recall the details at all, but I know I felt generally supported and empowered, iyswim.

I was barely examined, but was in the water for a good part of labour. I think there's a risk if infection every time someone has a rummage, but not sure where I read that.
I could have done with slightly more exams near the end (or less gas and air...) as I was trying to say I could feel DDs head just inside me with my own hand but the MW didn't understand so I waited longer than necessary to push, I think!

Haven't been on here for a while, look at what I've missed!! Congratulations kips, weeble and Derpress Such wonderful news.

I am breathing more easily about possible preterm labour now that we made it to 34w. (Just please don't come during the three days in September that DH will have to be abroad!)

Baby is in breech and if he stays like that we'll have to have a c-section (I cannot push hard due to a medical reason). Come on baby, turn!

And I can't believe I still don't have a cot for the little one. I am feeling like I am already a bad mother! I keep researching everything obsessively, it's making a decision and acting on it that's my problem... Everyone told me that FTPs buy way too much unnecessary stuff but I fear I am erring on the other side!

Hiya all and congrats to all the mothers. Iam new 35 weeks due on the 20th of Sept and its team pink

I was just filling in the birth plan bit in my notes last night and put in minimal internals but I'm not even sure what that might mean. With DS1 there was no need, all they had to do was look and see his head (he was born about half an hour after arriving at the hospital!). With DS2 I was only examined on arrival, I was 4-5 cm dilated and they asked me if I wanted to go home again, a 20 minute drive away!!!! He was born about 2 hours later and at no point did anyone suggest examining me again.

Feeling a bit stressed today as DS1 started a new school. It's huge and we lost him at the end of the day. He'd gone back for something he'd forgotten by which time I figured he must have come out another door and had gone to look for him. A bit of a man-hunt was started and it turned out he'd gone home when he couldn't find me. We only live a five-minute walk from the school but he's only 7 and I'd assured the headteacher he wouldn't have gone off by himself . The idea of having a baby seems oddly distant at the moment...

Usually on my phone so hadn't seen your photos Derpess - your twins are gorgeous!
last day of the summer holidays for me, DS1 starts P2 tomorrow so it will be just me and DS2, I think we'll both really miss the big one!
Have more midwife tomorrow, then day assessment on Friday - I'm being monitored pretty closely now because of the pre-eclampsia. all being well, I will have a baby two weeks today!

anyone else being brave and watching The Midwives?? ive already been in tears twice!

Me Kim - not sure it was a good idea though, i'm an emotional wreck now! Taped it for DP too - don't know what he'll make of it (if I can persuade him to watch it!)