We are all jolly well going to have a perfectly uneventful pregnancy and pain free birth and will brook no argument at all

[HidingInTheUndergrowth]

In a moment bravery here is the anti-natal thread for all those continuing to Brook No Argument into pregnancy and beyond.

So raise your fists to the sky and sing loud for there is no turning back now! We shall all stand firm and prevail with joy in our hearts as all our pregnancies will be simply blooming perfect!

Hurrah! and more Hurrah! :o

How frustrating Too!! You can understand that mw's are busy and get delayed by important things, but really to not even call and let you know is just unnecessary!

Fingers crossed she gets her act together and drops your notes off before her hol!

Can I ask a slightly random question ladies? I guess this might not be as relevant for everyone who already has a DC, you probably sorted this out ages ago. For DH and I the positive pee stick has already raised a potentially contentious issue - Guardians.

I'm a total anal retentive about wills. A few years ago I saw a very close friend of mine have a huge amount of additional suffering heaped onto her situation when her Mum died unexpectedly without a will. It's always been important to me to have one, and DH and I created our joint will before we were even married! (We were engaged and had just bought a house together). Obviously our will at the moment leaves everything to close family, and we need to update it to make sure our DC inherit everything if the worst happens.

As part of updating the will we also need to nominate a Guardian for our DC. This created instant warfare as DH has an incredibly annoying and unsuitable brother that he completely dotes on (grr) and he wanted to name him!! For a thousand reasons that I won't go into my bro-in-law is NOT a possibility. So we've finally agreed on my uncle (who's only about ten years older than me) and his wife.

This long rambling boring post (sorry!) is mainly because I'm really curious if anyone else has had to make a similar choice? Was it a unanimous decision or an argument? Have you spoken to the potential guardian about this yet (and if so how did you do it!?!) Somehow it feels like sorting out this will is one of the most important things I can do to protect my little bean before he/she is born. DH thinks I'm crazy for working on this so early, but I fully intend to have the new wills printed out in triplicate and ready to sign in the labour room!

We ended up nominating my parents. We have 2 close friends neither of whom have had their own children yet and 2 brothers between us who also haven't yet sprogged.

Naming people who haven't started their own family yet didn't feel right for them or dd so we decided it came down to the 4 grandparents. We nominated my parents as they are younger and pretty wealthy so should be able to cope better. I would imagine all 4 of them sharing care though.

We have never told PILS this - they have never asked.

It's a very tricky thing.

I remember my mum telling me my aunt and uncle were nominated for me and my db when I was quite young. I really hated my cousin and it did scare me quite a bit!

You're so right about the issue of not having had children yet! My uncle and his wife are planning to start a family soon, but don't yet have any children. That was probably the single biggest factor that made we worry about choosing them. However our DC will be mixed-race, and my uncle is also in a mixed race marriage, so in the end we decided that was more important in the long-run than the fact that they don't yet have kids.

DH has lots of cousins around the same age as us that I really like, and who have very young children. We really struggled with whether it would be better to nominate one of them, but they all live out in teeny tiny rural communities which aren't at all ethnically diverse and I just worried that it would be a little bit harder for our DC in that situation. It would be hard enough to be "different" within the family you're growing up in, without having to also be "different" within the community you live in. My uncle lives in London like us, which is our preference for DC. Naturally his kids will also be mixed race, which I think is important.

Such a toughie! Also (and I really don't want anyone to think I'm sabre-rattling here because I genuinely believe everyone is entitled to make their own choices about their life) but I'm quite anti-smoking (for myself! not anyone else!) and my uncle's wife smokes... I hate the idea of my DC growing up in a smoker household! She's absolutely wonderful and I genuinely believe she would do an amazing job of looking after our DC if it came to that, but smoking is so against my principles... I'm secretly hoping that when she gets pg she'll give it up for good!

"we"!?! "we"!?! Can I blame it on the baby brain?

Scream, we nominated DH's brother. I guess we had a choice of my sister or his brother. My sis is a bit older than us, her DH is older still and they have no kids and are a bit mental. DH's brother is married but yet to reproduce, but I guess we all anticipate that they will soon ish (fingers crossed). They were talking about buying a bigger car so it must be in the bag? Also they are very financially stable and quite similar to us in outlook etc.

Think my sis was a bit put out that we picked them (she subsequently refused to be executor of my will I think ) but it was our choice and dh's bro was so much more suitable.

I do hope dh's bro has kids though - would be nice for DS to have some cousins. Hope they don't have any problems. We were secretly hoping they might be when we last saw them but nothing yet. I should state here that although DH and I always notice if they (or she) drinks, we would NEVER say it to them - I'm not one of those people!

Oh, and on the point of dh's bro not having kids yet we did ask them about it all first and discussed it. They have a big enough house and DS would come with all his kit and inheritance from us (for what it's worth)

It's a tough one when other people feel differently. I mentioned the issue to my mother and she immediately interrupted with "well of course your father and I would be the guardians!". It was hard to gloss over this gently and explain we had chosen my uncle. My Mum is lovely but of course she's a lot older than her brother. Also my Dad is slightly mental.

Fingers crossed for little cousins on the way at the same time as BiscuitCrumb! How very exciting! Of course we would never have thought you could be one of those people! Mentioning it to someone before the announcement is just crass!

Like you Biscuits we're not worried on the financial side. Both our families are financially secure and our DC would come with a reasonable inheritance.

It's a tough one Scream. Although we didn't argue about it, it was a discussion that went on for months before we made a final decision.

Our options were, our parents, DH's sister and her husband or my single sister.

We decided against our parents given their age and decline in health. (Nothing major, just usual old-age associated ailments). If my sister were in a situation where she was considering having children herself I would have ideally have chosen he,r as she loves DS almost as much as we do. As it is she's single, loves her career and children aren't on her agenda at all so it seems to unfair a burden.

So we decided on DSIL and her DH. They have 1 young child of their own and will possibly have more in the future. We thought it the worst were to happen to us the best thing for DS would be to be brought up in a family with children of a similar age. We are fortunate enough to not have to worry about him financially. We have enough provision for them to make any adjustments to their living arrangements (we'd want him to have his own room) and for his future.

It was sorting out the finer detail that we found harder. As it setting requests to make sure my parents are not left out. Christmases, birthdays,weekends, holidays etc and what happens if Dsis decides to emmigrate with him? Or move 300 miles away from my family? what if Dsis and her DH split up and living and financial arrangements change? All stuff that might seem extreme to be worrying about but stuff that we felt that was important but quite awkward to discuss.

I was worried about telling my parents but thankfully they completely understood where we were coming from and agreed that it would be in his best interest as long as they were able to have reasonable access and help with decision making etc. I still wonder if we've done the right thing as I've always struggled a bit with DH's family and it feels uncomfortable for me to not have my family as guardians. But really there was no better alternative.

Appalling grammar in that last post. Hope it makes sense still

That's an interesting one! We discussed it but never got as far as a decision. DH was very keen on making his brother and SIL guardians. They have 2 young kids of their own (5 & 2), and are financially stable. At the time, however, they were living in New York which I was dead against, because my family wouldn't have been able to visit much, if at all. They've since moved back to London, which is less of an issue, but still not ideal, as my family are mainly in Aberdeenshire.

I thought about my sister, but neither DH nor I particularly rate her boyfriend, plus they haven't got kids and aren't really in a place where they could take any on.

I think DH's parents are too old - late 50s but won't look after both BIL's kids at once because they would be too much work.

I suppose one of my parents would be best - they are in their mid-late 40s. Mum and my stepfather are wealthier and have fewer other commitments (their kids being grown up, or nearly so). Dad and my stepmother have 3 kids under 10, so my DC would be part of a big family and would grow up in the same part of the world as I did, with lots of family near by. The downside to that is that I didn't get on with my stepmother as a teenager at all and don't want my kids to go through the same thing! Maybe she'll have mellowed by the time her kids have gone through their teens.

I suppose it comes down to either Mum or BIL. I know which one DH will want!

Has anyone read Eight Cousins, by LM Alcott? The girl in that gets farmed out to her 6 aunts for a few months each and then has to make a decision who she'll live with at the end of that time! Don't want that.

Can you put in some sort of clause that says I want BIL, sister, Mum and Dad to be prepared to provide a home for my DCs depending on what seems to be most appropriate as time goes on? What if at age 13, say, my DC decided that they really wanted to live with their auntie (my sister), and she was able to have them? Am I overcomplicating this?

This whole thing is so complicated! Scarlet and Too you're both right about wanting to be more specific in the will than just "The Guardian will be X". I would love to be able to stipulate legally enforceable visitation rights for both families, or to have an automatic update clause for in ten years' time.

In my case my younger brother is a great guy with a lovely girlfriend. They're not engaged yet but already talking about marriage and a future together as if it's a given (my brother's just waiting until he finishes his postgrad course). I'm sure that in 5 years' time they'll be happily married, financially secure, and possibly expecting kiddies of their own. At that point I'd rather they were guardians than my uncle - but right now I couldn't possibly nominate them!

Even if it is possible to put an update clause in the will, at the moment I'm finding it hard enough to envisage how I'll approach my uncle to ask if he's willing to be guardian. I CANNOT imagine going back to him in 5 years time and saying "Thanks for being guardian, but now my brother's a bit older you're no longer first choice so we're taking you off". That would be crazy! So I guess if my uncle is kind enough to agree, that's what we'll stick with.

That's what I found *Dumbledore" Every way I looked at it, I found more complications and more clauses I wanted to put in.

Realistically it's unfair to expect people to commit to extreme clauses but the control freak in me wanted every angle covered to make sure my DS has the best upbringing possible without his parents. And the whole "depending on what seems most appropriate" thing. Who gets to decide what's most appropriate? Such a minefield of worry.

I had to accept in the end that worrying about it in fine detail was pointless. I'd be dead after all and never know any different. I think once you've chosen your guardians you have to trust that they will do the best for your DC. You've trusted them to give him a home, so you should trust their decisions. It was making sure that my family were included that was most important to me. Some of the rest of it I had to let go and I just have to hope that none of it ever becomes necessary.

Thanks for the book recommendation Too by the way! I love LM Alcott and I hadn't heard of that particular story before. It's now winging its way to my Kindle app

scream pretty much all of my symptoms have gone away but i have developed sore boobs for the first time. Im brooking no arguements at all that the little pea (oh yes its the size of small pea now!) is cooking away nicely in there. Am also crying at everything on tv

A page full of very complex stuff happened whilst i wasnt looking, hence strangely out of context post. Re guardians etc, I have no idea about this and its not something I can see myself needing to do. I would trust close family and friends to make appropriate choices if the situation arised.

Meconium - You will need to make a choice and put it down in a will though. An orphaned child becomes a ward of court automatically if there is no stipulation in the will even in the presence of loving extended family. Scary huh? We didnt make a will till dd was 6 months when I got a total bollocking from my tax lady/acountant person. She scared the sh*t out of me.

Back to the nub - have read up about it and checked scan pictures and it would seem to be a girl. I am going to admit something that may make you all hate me now. I had a fleeting moment of disappointment before thinking 'oo another little girl how lovely'. I think we will only have two children (dh wishes and docs advice as per earlier in the thread) and I guess the thought of never having a son provoked something in me.

Am I awful?

Pomme you couldn't be further from awful! I think sometimes these crazy thoughts just pop up even though you KNOW that in reality you'll love your child just as much whatever the gender!

I'm a bit of a girlie-girl and to be honest sometimes for no credible reason I feel a little apprehensive at the idea of having a boy. My sister and I are just so much closer to my Mum than my brother is. I know it's ridiculous though, and I TRULY don't mind what gender my little bean is, I couldn't physically love s/he anymore than I'm going to, and the gender won't matter in the end at all. I do sometimes have those fleeting moments though, so I know what you mean!

Meconium what Pomme has said is exactly right. My friend was her Mum's only child, and the Mum was unmarried / no longer with the father, so it was immediately clear that my friend would inherit everything. However because there was no will my friend couldn't access bank accounts, couldn't stop British Gas turning off the gas supply to her home, she couldn't drive the car anymore because the insurance was invalid but she didn't own the car so she couldn't get new insurance cover. It was just a nightmare. It took around 8 months for probate to come through and even though from day 1 my friend was always going to inherit everything, it was an incredibly stressful and difficult time for her. It's not the same situation of course, but having a will in place just makes everything easier and quicker for DC and the rest of your family. They can immediately access everything they need to, they have immediate legal custody without having to go through a lengthy court process. Not having a will is easier for the person I guess, but a hundred times harder for the family left behind.

Sorry to be such a moaner, it's just I watched my friend go through a lot. (Plus I'm also in a profession where we come across this sort of thing occasionally and people are always so surprised at how hard it is without a will.)

Very interesting conversation about guardians. Me and dp actually decided about this when i was last pregnant before i had the mc as it was one of the first things unwanted to make a decision about. Dp is 12 years older then me and also my mum had cancer (though recovered fine) quite young so I really wanted it clear what would happen should the worst occur.

It's interesting to me that everyone seems to think it so important that the guardian has their own children. Me and dp both agreed that we feel the exact opposite in that we would prefer our dc to be looked after by someone who will be able to focus completely on their needs and also will not have preset routines with their children which may differ from the routines our dc will have grownup with.

My sis and dp's bro already have 3 each and i cant stand the thought of our bereaved dc suddenly going from an only child to one of four where, even with the best intentions he could not possibly get the attention I think would be needed in those circumstances. My other brothers have 1 each so we have decided that our first choice would be my best friend who has no kids with one of my brothers as the second choice as him and his girlfriend have a parenting style that I really admire. My friend would look after our dc amazingly and has very much the same values as me and dp so seems the perfect choice. Obviously things may change and my friend may suddenly have hundreds of kids of her own but we can always review the wills should we need to in the future.

Strangely I had thought that this would be a difficult decision but as soon as we started talking about it we found we both agreed straight away.

That's a really interesting point Hiding! DH and I had approached it from the point of view that people with their own children would be more knowledgeble about how to look after a child, and also it means we have had a chance to see their parenting style. Plus for people without children there's always the worry that if they suddenly had to turn their entire lives upside down for a child that isn't theirs (no more late nights, no spontanteous holidays, having the responsibilities of a parent for the first time) it might make things harder for the guardian as well as our DC.

However your point about going from an only child to a houseful is very true! I think that the routines of the child would change completely whether or not they go to a person with their own established childcare routine though. It would be a blessing for your child to go to an environment where they can be the focus of support at such a difficult time.

Thanks for sharing your different perspective! I'm glad you found it an interesting discussion by the way, I'm never sure about MN etiquette for topics like these! MN is the first forum I've ever posted on, and the No Brooking threads are the only ones I've ever been part of. So I'm not sure if people want to discuss heavy topics like this, or if it's more appropriate to stick to strictly ante-natal / conception topics. I just have all these crazy thoughts running around my head all the time and I really appreciate being able to talk it through with you all!

Scream, there's a sequel too, called A Rose In Bloom. Hope you like it!

Actually scream its really helpful to go through it eith others aswell and see a different point of view. Me and dp do rather feel like we are making it all up as we go along and hoping for the best really.

I think you are right about pros and cons both ways but I guess for our circumstances this makes more sense. Dp's brother is close but the hardly have room for themselves so I don't know how they would manage with another one. Also their dc are very boisterous and rather hard work. I am really not very close to my siblings, we get on ok but think nothing of not seeing each other for years at a time so I feel that my dc will actually have more of a relationship with my bf then they will with my siblings.

I do worry a bit about her not having experience of having her own child but then neither do I. I know it's different but I feel I know her well enough to be able to judge how she will manage.

You are right that routines will change whoever but I just feel that with small things someone who doesn't already have children will be able to be more flexible. For example with no children you would be more likely to think 'hiding's dc has a bath just before bed so I will give him a bath just before bed' whereas if you already had a couple of kids you would think 'my kids watch tv before bed so hiding's child will now also watch tv before bed.' I know this sounds silly and small but is strangely important to me.

I have talked to her about it and made it clear that if she didn't feel able to take this on or any reason I wouldn't think badly of her and would understand. It is a huge thing to ask of anyone no matter if they already have kids or not.

scream it IS interesting and definitely very relevant. We've only just made ours (and DS is nearly two - terrible procrastinators) and its been very difficult as my in-laws are in the US.

We've sort of copped out and said my parents (who look after DS once a week now) until they become infirm when we'll have to think again about which side of the pond he'll be on. Very difficult.