DD 4.5 accused of picking on a 6.5 yo

[grandelatte]

Am new to all this and wondered if I could call on all you mumsnetters for some advice!

My dd is 4.5 and has been playing out with the kids outside since last summer. She is by far the youngest - all the other kids are 6+. She holds her own amongst them, but is obviously more immature - the difference between 4 & 6 is quite significant in terms of maturity. She can be a bit bossy but I think that's just her trying to fit in with the bigger girls and she does try and copy their behaviour.

I was mortified last night when a neighbour tapped the door to tell me that her dd has been going in crying at the way my dd has been with her. DD is 4.5, other girl is 6.5.

Apparently, it's been happening quite a lot, to the extent that this little girl is "frightened" to go out and play.. When I asked her exactly what my dd is supposed to have done, it's verbal stuff like, "Go away, I don't like you", " I don't want to play with you, I'm going to play with X" etc - all fairly inoccuous little girl stuff as far as I can tell. She's not physical. I was very taken aback - my dd can be a bit of a handful and is quite vocal outside, but I think that's just her trying to find her niche and fit in.

DD often complains to me that this girl hasn't been very nice to her and shouts at her and SIL witnessed an occasion where she was rude to my dd - so she's no angel. I told the mum this and that it's probably 6 of 1 and 1/2 doz of the other and I do feel she sould be taking dd's age and immaturity into the equation. She did comment that her dd is very sensitive. Do you think she's making a mountain out of a molehill? How verbal and nasty can a 4yo be, fgs!! DD is a handful but has a sweet nature - spoke to playgroup this morning and they were surprised as she is an angel there and plays nicely with her peers which makes me think part of it is bravado and trying to fit in with the big girls.

I should also point out that my dd has a little toddler crush on the little boy down the road who has declared that, while he likes dd, he wants to 'marry' this other little girl - I suspect this is also partly to do with them not getting along.

Tried talking to dd and explaining that we must be nice to all our friends, but she insists she dosn't like this little girl, will continue to be nasty to her (if saying I don't want to play with you is nasty??). She wants to be friends with everyone else but her - I suspect she's jealous of her closeness to this little boy - hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!! I am struggling with dd's behaviour at the moment anyway as for the last few weeks she has been very cheeky, hitting, kicking and spitting at me. So trying to get through to her about being nice to this little girl is falling on deaf ears and she is in the mindset at the moment of the more you try and tell her not to do something, she will do it - so I'm probably going to be fuelling this by trying to talk her into being nicer.

So - in your opinion, did this warrant a knock on the door - I can't help feeling the mum is over reacting a little - at 4yo shouldn't she be cutting her some slack? It's just playground stuff as far as I can see. And how can I get these 2 to play nicely together and explain to dd about being nice. Thanks if you've go this far!!

Well if her daughter is sitting at home crying over this then I can understand why she knocked on your door. Nobody likes to sit by and do nothing when their kid is upset.

It probably is "six of one" etc and I hope she was accepting of that fact rather than piling the blame at your door. This sort of exchange is pretty common between kids and provided kids are ultimately being raised to have empathy for others then all should be well.

In my opinion, this DID warrant a knock on the door. It sounds like your daughter has been an unpleasant little madam to the other girl lately, and you do need to know these things if you allow her to play out without an adult listening in, so you can deal with it.

i suggest, in all seriousness, that you deal with it by keeping her in. If she isn't mature enough for non supervised social interactions, she shouldn't be in a situation where non supervised social interactions can happen, as naughty behavior and unpleasant interactons are going to be the result.

I think that 4.5 is too young to be playing out without better supervision from you.

Whether you thought it warranted a knock on the door, the other mother obviously did. Her dd has been upset by this and you need to think about your dd's actions as a result.

I agree with colditz that you need to supervise her more effectively. Presumably at playgroup she is supervised, so I don't think that you can take her behaviour at playgroup as being any indication of how she might behave in other situations.

i must be living on a different planet! I appriciate the little girl is upset but I do feel we mustn't lose sight of the age and immaturity of my dd and the fact that it is playground stuff - go away, not playing with you etc. It's not exactly full on bullying is it! Don't get me wrong - I'm not happy about it and will be doing my best to point dd in the right direction - life is a learning curve after all - but from what I've heard from friends who have children at school it is commonplace. So my 'unpleasant littl madam' just takes her place alongside all the other silly little girls who are just learning about life........and how will they ever learn about life, Pixie, if we don't let them interract and find their way! Better to get the social skills learned from an early age, that's what I say - I know I've hit a stumbling block at the moment - but onwards and upwards!

The 6.5 yr old might be only just starting to play out herself and it sounds as if, as you yourself acknowledge, that dd has been unkind, which is certainly possible if she has been hitting,spitting and kicking you! So a 6.5yr old might well be frightened of her. I'm not saying the other child is angelic but dd sounds like she is going through a challenging stage and would benefit from some firm messages from you.

If dd is insistent that she will continue to be nasty, then your role as parent is to correct that - by not letting her out to play unless supervised. It's not all about punishing her - maybe dd is like this because she feels unsure in these circumstances (4.5 feels very young) - and that the angelic little girl playgroup sees is because she is supervised, feels secure and gets postive reinforcement.

I think it would warrant a knock on the door.

I have a 4yo and a 6yo. My 6yo is not mature enough to cut some slack to 4yos on account of their youth.

If any of my dcs are being horrid I would rather know than not so I can talk to them about it.

Your 4.5 year old is INDEED learning her social skills but she is learning them at the expense of another child's feelings.

That 6 year old is someone's daughter. She's a child herself. She has her own needs, her own agenda, her own feelings. She's not a cabbage patch kid for your daughter to try out all these new and exciting horrible phrases on - she's a real child, and will be hurt.

But it's the 'you're not my friend' stuff that really upsets little girls!

So, if everyone needs to remember the age/immaturity of your dd and that she's still learning how to get on etc, then the 'everyone' needs to include you, in making sure that you don't allow her in social situations like this unsupervised.

It's great that she's fine at playgroup (which is supervised) and at school there will be some supervision at playtime etc, but if you accept that she is too young/immature for unsupervised play then you need to act accordingly, IMO.

I don't mean that to sound critical, by the way! Sometimes when we're very close to a situation it's hard to look at it objectively.

Ah, and I didn't mean the last bit to sound patronising, either - sorry. Not at my best with words today.

grandelatte, if you are on another planet then I must be too! My DS who has ASD and ADHD plays outside and has done since he was about 4. I can see the children from my lounge window and normally have it open so I can hear what is going on. It is generally the more emotionally mature children who push him as far as they can to get a reaction. I don't interfere with this, unless violence is involved, as it's part of learning social skills but when another mother comes to my door I can assure them that I was fully aware of what went on and perhaps they have't had the full explanation from their child.

Yes, apologies are to be made and we have sweets to share with said girl this afternoon. Please don't get me wrong - I empathise with the mother and the child and can see that she was right to make me aware of dd's behaviour. Maybe SHE should be supervising HER child more - if she knows she's super sensitive, maybe she shouldn't let hers out to play unsupervised until she's learned to toughen up a bit and accept that she will encounter these little spats with kids as it is part of life. After all, I know my dd has been on the receiving end of the other little girls sharp tongue, maybe dd just deals with it better - she's, therefore, in my eyes no better than dd. As I will re-emphasise, this is childish "I don't like you" stuff, not full on relentless, nasty bullying that older kids who should know better dish out. Kids say horrible things one minute, then are best pals the next. Let's get some perpective on it, please!!

I shall busy myself out front this afternoon and keep an eye on what goes on - once I've seen for myself the interraction between them, I can decide whether it warrants dd being grounded for a few days. What I don't want to do is punish her for sticking up for herself (albeit in an immature way with silly words) if this girl is provoking her by also being unkind.

Children learn appropriate social skills by being shown them by trusted adults, and being supported to sort out disagreements. Just leaving them to get on with it will just lead to more upset for one or other, or both of them.

I agere with ClenchedBottom that the "I don't like you" stuff is actually really upsetting for some children.

I don't think your dd needs to be grounded at all, but she does need to be told that it's not ok to continue saying these things, and she needs to be supported and supervised so her social skills develop appropriately.

Whether this girl is provoking her or not, you are responsible for making sure your dd behaves in the right way.

I can assure you I am not at all happy at dd's behaviour - I am not turning a blind eye and have talked to her about it and will be monitoring things. We went over to said girl today with chocolate an dd apologised for "making her sad". I am merely trying to make the point that SHE IS ONLY 4.5, YES SHE ISN'T BEING PARTICULARLY NICE AT THE MOMENT, BUT SHE IS SO IMMATURE, SHE DOSN'T APPRECIATE THE CONSEQUENCES OF HER ACTIONS, YES I AM MAKING HER AWARE OF HOW UNPLEASANT IT IS TO BE ON THE RECEIVING END OF THIS BEHAVIOUR BUT SHE ONLY POPPED OUT OF MY WOMB LESS THAN 5 YEARS AGO, SHE IS NOT YET WORLDLY WISE GROWN UP AND HAS NO IDEA OF HOW UPSETTING IT CAN BE, BUT I AM TRYING TO EDUCATE HER - THIS ONLY HAPPENED 24 HRS AGO. I just think that maybe the mum is being a tad overprotective and has lost sight of the fact that dd is terribly young and that out of the mouths of silly little 4 year olds will pop the odd derogatory comment. I just think that some people are too quick to tut tut at other children's behaviour in a world where we expect perfection from kids who are too young to know better and need to be pointed in the right direction. FGS where's the commonsense gone to in the world. 4yo=silly, immature comments = tears in over sensitive 6 yo. End of story as far as I'm concerned. Yes, vegasmum, I'm sorry - toughen up a bit! I'm not condoning it, but it is soft stuff and commonplace - fact of life, toddlers say unkind things as they are too young to know any different & i tell my dd to ignore it or just walk away - obviously if an older child was behaving badly, I'd be concerned as they should know better. For arguments sake, if you were grossly overweight and my dd told you you were fat, would you really hold it against her? Surely, you would think to yourself, that was embarassing, but she's just a kid and hasn't let learned the grand art of tactfulness. If we don't like someone, we just avoid them - children aren't so subtle are they. They tell them the way it is.

Someone pointed out to me that posting on mumsnet puts you in the firing line for a barage of vitriol and condemnation - my god, she was right. The scorn and dislike poured out here for the actions of a 4 yo little immature "unpleasant little madam" who is trying to keep up with the 'big girls' has stunned me and I won't be coming back for any more.

If she is an immature 4.5 year old then don't let her play out unsupervised.

I have an immature 7 year old (boy). He gets as far as the rfront step.

How rude, stop shouting OP.
This bit says it all really "For arguments sake, if you were grossly overweight and my dd told you you were fat, would you really hold it against her? Surely, you would think to yourself, that was embarassing, but she's just a kid and hasn't let learned the grand art of tactfulness"
Children learn from the adults around them. If a child tells someone they are fat, then the adult should be on hand to explain to the child why we don't say things like that (I'll tell you as you obviously have no idea). It is rude, it is likely to damage somebody's self esteem and shows a lack of empathy.
You say yourself that "If we don't like someone, we just avoid them - children aren't so subtle are they. They tell them the way it is." Your daughter will learn this out the hard way. She will end up with no friends and whose fault will that be?

Your dd isn't being criticised, what's being suggested is some intervention from you to help her negotiate how to play or remove from a situation where she feels pushed into being nasty to defend/assert herself - she is angelic at playschool.

Where the concern lies, I think, is in that your dd shouldn't be used to "toughen up" another little girl or really at 4.5 to have to "toughen up" herself, as you say she's only a baby really.

In the last few days of dd nursery ( 3-6 yr olds) this week many children were off. So the groups of friends changed . The older children naturally played together and how many times did I hear ' go away you are too small ' Or clearly ' you are stupid as you are small. ( I teach english at this nursery and often stay in the playground until children go into class) This all came from the 6 yr olds. The smaller children were just looking for playmates. So to be honest having seen all this ( and yes I took action ) it sounds to me that grandettes dd is giving back quite simply what she was given or was witness to.
I agree that it is wrong and that she is taking action to stop it . However I think some of the comments were a bit strong IMO....

I think it's in the Margaret Atwood book Cat's Eye where the narrator says: "Little girls are only sweet and inncocent to adults. To other little girls, they are life-size."

The other girl is only six herslef. To a sixyearold, your daughter's behaviour could well be construed as bullying.