DD 4.5 accused of picking on a 6.5 yo

[grandelatte]

Am new to all this and wondered if I could call on all you mumsnetters for some advice!

My dd is 4.5 and has been playing out with the kids outside since last summer. She is by far the youngest - all the other kids are 6+. She holds her own amongst them, but is obviously more immature - the difference between 4 & 6 is quite significant in terms of maturity. She can be a bit bossy but I think that's just her trying to fit in with the bigger girls and she does try and copy their behaviour.

I was mortified last night when a neighbour tapped the door to tell me that her dd has been going in crying at the way my dd has been with her. DD is 4.5, other girl is 6.5.

Apparently, it's been happening quite a lot, to the extent that this little girl is "frightened" to go out and play.. When I asked her exactly what my dd is supposed to have done, it's verbal stuff like, "Go away, I don't like you", " I don't want to play with you, I'm going to play with X" etc - all fairly inoccuous little girl stuff as far as I can tell. She's not physical. I was very taken aback - my dd can be a bit of a handful and is quite vocal outside, but I think that's just her trying to find her niche and fit in.

DD often complains to me that this girl hasn't been very nice to her and shouts at her and SIL witnessed an occasion where she was rude to my dd - so she's no angel. I told the mum this and that it's probably 6 of 1 and 1/2 doz of the other and I do feel she sould be taking dd's age and immaturity into the equation. She did comment that her dd is very sensitive. Do you think she's making a mountain out of a molehill? How verbal and nasty can a 4yo be, fgs!! DD is a handful but has a sweet nature - spoke to playgroup this morning and they were surprised as she is an angel there and plays nicely with her peers which makes me think part of it is bravado and trying to fit in with the big girls.

I should also point out that my dd has a little toddler crush on the little boy down the road who has declared that, while he likes dd, he wants to 'marry' this other little girl - I suspect this is also partly to do with them not getting along.

Tried talking to dd and explaining that we must be nice to all our friends, but she insists she dosn't like this little girl, will continue to be nasty to her (if saying I don't want to play with you is nasty??). She wants to be friends with everyone else but her - I suspect she's jealous of her closeness to this little boy - hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!! I am struggling with dd's behaviour at the moment anyway as for the last few weeks she has been very cheeky, hitting, kicking and spitting at me. So trying to get through to her about being nice to this little girl is falling on deaf ears and she is in the mindset at the moment of the more you try and tell her not to do something, she will do it - so I'm probably going to be fuelling this by trying to talk her into being nicer.

So - in your opinion, did this warrant a knock on the door - I can't help feeling the mum is over reacting a little - at 4yo shouldn't she be cutting her some slack? It's just playground stuff as far as I can see. And how can I get these 2 to play nicely together and explain to dd about being nice. Thanks if you've go this far!!

Your dd has the social skills of a 4yo but you need to understand the other child has the social skills and understanding of a 6yo. You seem to expect adult levels of empathy and understanding from the 6yo. If people are cutting your dd some slack for being little, they also have to cut the 6yo some slack for being little too.

As the mother of a 4yo, a 6yo probably seems like a big kid to you but once your own dd is six you will realise those expectations are too high.

As for playing out, unlike some of the other posters, I don't think four is too young. Depends where you live - ds has been playing out since he was just under four, because we live in a cul de sac so it's quite safe and all the parents and kids know each other. BUT in this case it might be worth keeping your dd in for a day or two to show her that saying nasty things isn't on.

However, it might well be six of one and half a dozen of the other - so watch them carefully next time they are playing out but try to be objective and understand they are BOTH immature.

I think edam has some wise words. You seem to be forgetting that the 6 year old is not a grown up, she is still a child and doesn't know how to deal with a 4yo and their actions. 6yo's don't suddenly develop social skills and understanding and she's understandingly upset by it.

You will also find that this sort of thing will come up with 6,7,8,9 and even 10 year olds. They are children, they don't always play 'nicely', we can just be there as parents to help them learn to be 'nice' as much as possible.

understandingly!!! - understandably

Pixie - how am I going to know that her immaturity is going to hurt others until it happens? It's like not going outside in case we get run over by a bus - we deal with situations as they happen - I wasn't going to sit there a year ago and say to myself, better not let dd out in case she upsets someone. Now I know and AM dealing with it by monitoring the situation and talking to dd about the consequences of her actions. I can assure you I am not blind to dd's faults and am certainly not looking at her through rose tinted glasses - she would tell you herself that I do come down on bad bahaviour and try to set good examples.

I concede dd was wrong, apologies have been made - i just feel sometimes that part of parenting is to get things into perspective and maybe not make too much fuss over a storm in a teacup.

I apologise for the shouting in my previous post - written late last night under the influence of a large glass of red

I think it's come across loud and clear that you have do expect good behaviour from your DD. I have a feeling that the problem is that your DD is quite robust in terms of self-esteem and isn't greatly affected by harsh words from other children. That is fab for her and for you - it makes growing up much easier.

However the other little girl clearly isn't very robust for whatever reason. She isn't going to become robust all of a sudden because she's left to stand up for herself. She's more likely to feel that she can't go and play out with the other children.

If you put yourself in the other mum's position for a moment you might see her with a little girl who really wants to play out but can't cope with being told nasty things. I'm sure you would try to teach your own child to ignore those comments and carry on regardless. If she became more upset about it you might go and try to enlist the help of the other child's mother. I think that may be what she did.

All children can be thoughtless and hurtful at times and they do need to learn how to handle it themselves whenever possible. However there are times when it gets too much and an adult needs to step in to help out.

So your job now is to help your DD to see how other children can feel more vulnerable than she does. You can also talk her through different ways to manage when this other child says things she doesn't like.

With a bit of luck the two mums working together can help these girls to overcome these problems and they can both enjoy playing out together for a long time to come.

Vegasmmum your post was very harfsh considering the op has already said the 6 year old is also horrible to her dd.

I can't imagine going around to another parents house to complain about their child and can be quite tough on my own kids but that does mean that it often looks like my own child is the horrible one when it comes to situations because their parent will be happy to complain when its my childs fault but I won't say anythign when it's theirs.

It could well be or it could be the other way around couldn't it. Neither child is supervised
(we never were at that age)

As the mum of a 6 last weekend ds I think there is a huge difference between a 4.5 yr old and a 6.5 yr old. Ds is pretty mature for his age when it comes to social interaction but he is only just learning the give and take and the way to be when out playing. I really wouldn't expect a 4.5 yr old to grasp this at all. It is very different to have 4 yr olds playing together since the 'I don't like you' business is usually ignored by both sides. When you get to 6 children understand what those words really mean and accordingly are more affected when someone says it to them.

I wouldn't have let my ds play unsupervised with dcs two years older at that age and if I did I'd expect the sort of issues you've encountered. It is fine that your dd is 4.5 but I think it is a bit unreasonable to expect a 6.5 yr old to appreciate completely the difference in ages, use of language. I'd expect that from 8+.

'then go on to say she shouldnt 'let her dd out to play until she has toughend up a bit''

From another perspective, my DS has Asperger's and it used to cause problems in the playground.
Because if you were in the playground, running around like everyone else, that's what he saw. So if someone was rude or nasty to him, he responded in the same way, however old the child. No cutting of any sort of slack,
And MDS yelling 'He's only 5, and you are 9 meant nothing to him. Didn't begin to be comprehensible as a reason to try and change his behaviour.
One of the reasons that the older child may be upset is if she's having to modify her response, because of her sense of social responsibility. She can't be mean, can't give her a slap, can't tell her how bitchy she is, because as the older child, she'll be in trouble if the little one goes wailing to an adult.
Frustration makes me cry and avoid people I can't be honest with too.

Also, has the other Mum come to you as in "this is what is happening, let's see what we can do to sort it out" or a "your child is a menace and terrorising my child and shouldn't be out playing"

If the former then she is being very reasonable in wanting to get things sorted and all it might take is talking to each child and keeping a mindful eye on what they are up to.

Has she got any other friends she could play out with instead?

I remember clearly ( I know her name and everything) being in a similar situation as the ops dd when small. The girl over the road was always horrible to me and I was never very good at standing up for myself but neither did I tell anyone. On the few occasions I did stick up for myself I can distinctly remember that feeling as I hid behind the sofa knowing her dad and mum were going to come ranting (and swearing? I remember they were very aggressive) to the door to complain about me (I can picture him). Oddly I don't remember getting a huge telling off so maybe my parents had more understanding of the situation than I had realised. I think it's one of the reasons I am loathe to complain to another parent though as I can just imagine meeting someone like him on the other side of the door.

i don't understand any ofthis tbh.

Why is a parent knocking on the door to talk about some burgeoning minor conflict between two girls a bad thing. I would be happy to knock, or for another parent to knock here, so that we can talk about it and agree if we need to get involved and if so, in what way.

Why is the act of talking about our kids interaction now seen as OTT?

And OP keeps saying that children learn as they go and I strongly agree. In this instance her actions have upset another child and it creates the perfect oppertunity for the parent to have a nice conversation with their child about empathy and kindness and rudeness. If this is not the life learning oppertunity then what will it be? These are exactly the occasions that I use to teach my child empathy and kindness. They do not suddenly appear developmentally like breasts and acne.

This, right here, is the learning oppertunity/life lesson that OP feels should happen. But now it has it is being treated with hostility and defensiveness.

I am not trying to be awkward. I just really don't know why the reaction would not be 'OK - thanks for telling me' followed by a nice chat about speaking nicely to other people and being kind because 'how would you feel if...'

I would also like to say that 4.5 year olds frequently know that "I'm not playing with you" is their most deadly weapon in social situations. Developmentally they have realised that they can deliberately hurt other people, and this is one of the most effective ways of doing so. It is, of course, incredibly common, but it is also devastating to be on the recieving end of. At DD's primary school it is one of the things the staff have zero tolerance for, as four year olds are perfectly capable of bullying each other.

You do sound rather proud about the fact that your dd is not a sensitive plant. I would reserve that pride until you have seen what your dd is like at the age of 6. Ime many children get more sensitive rather than less between these two ages. In two years time it may well be your dd that sits at home sobbing and refuses to go out. In the meantime, the best you can do is to use it as a teaching opportunity.

I am also struck by your stating in the OP that you seem afraid to tell your dd to be nice in case this fuels more bad behaviour at home. Who is in charge then, your 4yo dd or you? Is your dealing with her behaviour outside of the home really going to be governed by her behaviour inside the home.

Surely it is a question of deciding whether this other mother is right and then acting accordingly, regardless of how your dd reacts to being told off. If you decide you should tell her how to behave outside the home and she won't accept it, then clearly you will have to just not let her out until she can accept it.

Otoh if you think she is pleasant and well behaved when out on her own, clearly you don't need to do anything.

" she is in the mindset at the moment of the more you try and tell her not to do something, she will do it - so I'm probably going to be fuelling this by trying to talk her into being nicer."

She sounds like she runs the show in your house. Add into the mix the fact that you, as others have said, seem rather proud of her being the cocky little 4 yr old. Why are you so afraid of being strict with her?

When she starts in year one, don't go whinging to teachers that the older girls are picking on your daughetr, which WILL happen, after all its all part of socializing isn't it?

I agree wholeheartedly with Alison's post.

I have one robust child and one not-so robust one, and it hurts to hear people saying he should just toughen up. - Goblin child hit the nail on the head - that's exactly how DS1 would feel - very upset and frustrated.

I think you feel understandably defensive OP - but try and think of it as a criticism of your DDs behaviour, not of her personality, or of you.