Please help me teach my ds ( aged 4) how to stand up for himself or tell me i am being unreasonable?

[lisalisa]

My ds2 is our fifth child and he is 4 and a half at nursery.

he has always been a very sweet and loving child with an extremely well developed sense of right and wrong. He is also not boisterous or aggresive in any way but is also not a pushover ( when it comes to others snatching toys etc).

When it came to our parent teacher review at nursery the staff said that he was extremely popular ( which I had deduced anyway ) due they said to his generous and giving nature and his friendly disposition.

So far so good.....

However the rough and tumble of nursery means that it is no good to cry each time another child hurts you or says something nasty to you and that it is important to react properly. By that some of you will probably think I'm being unreasonable but I am talking about repeate offenders rather than a child who occasionally scratches in frustration.

There are a few kids in ds class who are repeat offenders - one in particular is a problem and has been responsbile for some quite nasty injuries.

I have been trying to teach ds to quite firmly put his face close to the aggressors and point his finger in their face and say loudly " you are not allowed to hurt me do you understand?"

This has not really worked.

I therefore told him today after a particularly nasty incident that he must learn to hit back. I know soem will disagree with me but I do believe that one whack back by ds will mean that this boy ( and others ) do not see him as easy prey.

His reaction was that he is a good boy ( i.e. ds is ) and not a bad boy and only bad boys hit and he doesnt' want to hurt this other boy even if he is hurt. He refused to budge form this opionin.

I don't know what to do - literally. The teachers are aware of it but are at a a loss as to what to do .

The injury today was quite bad btw - happened in playground during time when parents supervise ( half hour period between nursery ending and primary school ending when partents and nursery kids wait in playground). I had turned my back thinking ds was happily scampering about with his friends. Next thing I knew he was howling wiht a really nasty injury - turns out this boy tripped him up and he fell face first and then this boy picked up his head and bashed it into the playground tarmac. Ds little nose is all bruised and purple.

Another mother saw and brought ds screaming to me. A rota picks up this other boy and she just shrugged her sorry and carried on talking.

I do need to teach ds to hit back as I know teeachers can't always keep an eye and this boy will smell out the weaker kids. But how?

I'd move my child to a different nursery, the staff sound pathetic. Don't teach your child to hit back, it's not a free for all, it shouldn't be happening in the first place.

Your poor child Please move him tomorrow.

BE very very carefull about teaching him to hit back. I'd be fairly wary of encourageing him to invade another childs space in an agressive manner shouting and waving a finger. just asking for another thump from them for that.

Moving away, shouting HE DID IT, telling a grown up yep they all work at this age, but hitting back? not sure its going to help him and if it not in his nature to hit out why would you want him to do it?

Belle

The nursery is attched to the primary school that ds will go to . All my kids have been through it and it is a lovely and warm and friendly school. The staff are superb too and ds has made some lovely friends. Apart from this one boy ( who seems to have a lovely mother btw) the vast majority of the other kids are lovely too and ds often goes for playdates at their houses and vice versa.

I don't want to move him due to this one boy.

I know its not a free for all - you are quite right - but this is not a perfect world and I feel ds has been disadvantaged by being the youngest in a large family ( I think he throught he was a pet rabbit rather than a child until he started nursery!) and needs to learn some important life skills such as fighting your corner and standing up to aggressors.

Poor Lisa - this sounds awful! It sounds like you have brought up a lovely little boy, and are doing everything that you should.
There is no excuse for this other boy's behaviour - it is far beyond "rough and tumble" to smack another child's face into the ground FFS!!
Trip the mother up and smack HER face into the ground - see how SHE likes it..... Only kidding - you're better than that...

I would definitely report the behaviour to the nursery/school though - this needs to be dealt with otherwise the vile thing is just learning that this violence is acceptable.

Unis - your suggestions sound good in theory but i am worried they will mark ds out as a tell tale very soon - nusery is ok but he will soon start reception. As he is a very soft child he will inevitably come in for more of this than the next child and tehrefore be calling the teacher more than the next child and so it continues....

Goodness, this is a very harsh thing to teach a 4 year old. If it's one child that's harming him then the staff need to do something. Your child is being physically bullied, he shouldn't have to hit back. Have you spoken to the head/nursery leader?

That's what the staff are there for though Lisa. At 4 he shouldn't be made to feel like he can't ask an adult for help when someone's trying to beat the shit out of him.

Thank you rewardgirl and I agree it is far beyond rough and tumble.

I will tell his teachers tomorrow ( as it happened outside nursery time) and point out his nose ( it is actually obvious anyway without needing to point it out).

this boy has a party this weekend and has invited the whole class. Many cchildren do not want to go as they are scared of the boy or do not like him. Until today my ds was willing to go too but not now.

I do feel sorry for the mother as she seems very sweet and kind herself but I only see her rarely as she drops off quite late wherreas i am usually fairly punctual.

Its not "snitching" they are 4 and 5 yr olds, they need to be able to ask an adult to help them negotiate some situations.

As adults we would make use of intermediary's / neutral persons in confrontational situations at work.

when we were being bullied at school and being pinched and nipped by the girl my mum was at her wits end with teh head not doing anything. in the end she told us that when someone hurt us we were to say, "if you hurt me again i will hurt you back." and walk away. it worked the first time with the bully, i guess because she saw i was standing up for myself. i didn't need to hurt her, just tell her that i was prepared to.

why on earth are the teachers at a loss for what to do? that sounds a load of old crap to be frank. they need to up their game and keep more of an eye on the repeat offenders who are targetting your child.

No, you're right Belle - he shouldn't. Generally - and wider than this boy - he has a problem standing up to others and boys will be boys ( generally again and not with reference to this incident) and in the general rough and tumble he is quite often hurt physically ( even if not deliberately ) and in tears.

I think I will tell him to tell the staff - you are all right - he is too young for me to tell him only to stand up for himself but surely I should be telling him also to stand up for himself either with words or actions?

sanfairyann - I think they have not seen this kind of situation before and are trying to work it through with the mother and the child.... I will ask though what happens when this is done in the classroom setting .

Ds " best friend" has a huge red scar across his face from this kid too.

booyhoo - how old were you when this happened?

Some boys find it really hard to fight back, it's not instinctive and there's nothing wrong with this. He needs to know that the teachers are there to help him rather then leave him to deal with problems himself, he will be able to do this as he matures. I always tell my son that he must tell a teacher if someone's hurt someone (including him) or if someone's in danger. It's the "miss, X has taken my pencil" that the teachers don't need to hear, this is the sort of thing children need to deal with themselves. As an adult, we would call the police if someone hit us, why should it be different for a child?

about 6ish

I don't think there is the same stigma attached to being a telltale in infants schools these days as there was 30 years ago. Certainly my dcs and all their friends have always been taught that they must tell an adult if anyone (that is, either they themselves or if they see anyone else) is hurt or frightened. Snitching doesn't really seem to come into it.

Ok thanks. I am actually a bit relieved that none of you think I ought to be teaching my ds to hit back as it did sadden me that I'd have to teach him to go against and sacrifice his lovely sweet nature just to fend off aggressive kids.

He naturally wanted to tell " the aunties" as that is what nursery calls the teachers as this is what they hvae been taught to do and I tried to dissuade him from doing that to fight back himself.

OK so tomorrow I'm going to encourage him to tell an adult if he is hurt and I'm also going to tell the staff in his class what happened and ask what measures are being taken to make sure that this doesn't happen again.

Good stratedgy?

Sounds good. I would speak to the head and explain to her what the staff have told you about him crying when there's 'rough and tumble' (bullying)
I'd ask to see their bullying policy and document every occasion where your child has been harmed.

I really do hope your son's OK No child should have to endure this.

Thanks belle - I can't help blaming our home environment a bit too as he was so mollycoddled at home due to being youngest in a big family that he got a big shock when he went to nursery.

You should be pleased your child is sensitive and caring.

It's bullying. It has nothing to do with being mollycoddled, he can't solve this by himself, he's only 4.

When you are four, telling an adult is standing up for yourself.

If someone attcked you physically, if they were bigger and stronger, would you expect to have to fight back because nothing would be done?

no, of course not ... you'd call the police. You'd inform authority. this is what your son needs to do... don't teach him to do the toddler thing, let him do the big boy thing, his instincts are right.

I am very pleased he is sensitive and caring. In fact he often appears to have a maturity far beyond his years ( when told diet coke is unhealthy he never wants to try it and always asks those he sees drinknig it why they want it if it is bad for them) . He is also exceptionally close to me - happy to just play at my feet whilst I get on with chores rather than to be taken out somehere.

He truly is a blessing and sometimes I feel I love him so much I could cheerfully strangle this other kid. That is why I sometimes think my feelings are off kilter and I should be teaching him to stand up for himself.

Thanks for all your help everyone.

Btw - when I meant mollycoddled I meant that he was unprepared for the world of nursery rivalry as at home his siblings all adored him and gave him toys, read to him and generally adored him and played with him ( he is also a very good looking child which helped as people used to make a big fuss of him).

In fact I remember his v eearly days at preschool - from 2.5yrs to 3 yrs - when another kid snatched a toy or hit him he would genuinly be confused and devastated trying to fathom out why the kid coulnd't wait for him to give them the toy ( whciih he wanted to do to give that pleasure) or why the kid hit him or pushed him - we got questions such as " doesn't x love me or like me " " does x hate me?" as this had never really been part of his life.

At least that part has been improved as he is no longer quite so inocent

My son is the same, he's incredibly passive and really supportive of his friends. He was badly bullied in his last school, mainly because he was told he had to sort the bullying out himself. He tried to talk his way out of it, it made things worse. He told the teachers who didn't want to know, this made things worse aswell. He finally pushed them away, this made things worse, upset him and got him into trouble as the teachers were told he'd hit someone. He couldn't win either way. The teachers knew about the children who were bullying him and did nothing. My son actually moves snails off the paths so people don't stand on them so it was really traumatic for him. He knows now that there will be people who don't like him, as for the physical violence, I really hope he doesn't encounter this again. He's stronger now though, but he's 11, not 4.

Ah belle - now I can understand where you are coming from too. Your poor ds.... I am glad he is stronger now too and hope that he never encounters this type of bullying again either....

Thanks for all your help tonight..

I hope it all works out. I don't remember children like this when I was at school, behaviour has really gone down hill. I don't think some schools handle it well at all, it shouldn't be left for the children to sort out, it's not acceptable outside schools so why is it OK inside?