teachers/schools: do they ever really help the children?

[crossma]

Sorry but a lot of anger here... calling all teachers, lunchtime supervisors, parents whose children have experienced bullies/aggression in the playground...
if a child is not having fun at breaks/playtime, due to children who "don't know any better" (so it seems to be an excuse for letting them continue with their bad behaviour), has a school/school employee ever been able to make things better or does it just get worse once parents start to complain?

The school I work in has a very active anti bullying policy. Children who have been victims more than once are sent on an asertiveness course, which is very helpful. The bully is also helped, but will be suspended for repeat offences. It still happens but it is taken very seriously.

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what a provocative title crossma - you don?t say exactly what has motivated this one so I am going to presume that it is because your child/children are being bullied, sorry if this is an inaccurate presumption.

When you write about children who don?t know any better being an excuse to let them continue with bad behaviour -where do you get this from? Has a teacher actually said this to you? If so (and I am astonished as an ex teacher) then follow it up immediately with the school as it is clearly unacceptable. However, if it is just how you perceive teachers to think, then I am here to tell you that the huge majority of teachers and other school staff do not think like that at all. We are just as concerned to prevent and stop bullying as are the parents. Honest - we teach and spend our days surrounded by children because we actually like them and want them to do well and be happy.

Many schools, like hmb?s, have active anti bullying policies and spend a lot of time and resources into dealing with issue. Bullying unfortunately is very difficult if not impossible to wipe out of schools 100% as we don?t have personality/emotional screening tests for entry exams (thank goodness). However, this doesn?t mean that schools just put up with it or see it as a minor issue. I believe that almost all (if not all) teachers are aware of how serious it can become - even leading to personality changes, massive underachievement even suicide. I could be wrong but I am sure that it is a legal requirement of schools to have a bullying policy in place and in schools policies do tend to mean something rather than just a it of paper.

Schools resolve bullying problems all the time - if not on a daily basis in larger schools - and the reason you only get to hear about when it all goes wrong is that it doesn?t make very exciting news when a school is found to be doing their job effectively. I resolved incidents all the time - not because I am a superteacher but because I had a supportive school with excellent policies in place, good training and enough humanity in me to believe that it was an important aspect of my job.

My adivce to you would be don?t judge your school until you have followed this through effectively - get involved and contact them immediately - if handled correctly by all sides, parental involvement might help to alert the school of a problem that has just been tragically missed and so help it to stop. I am presuming your child/children are suffering from some kind of incident here - have you contacted and alerted the school about your concerns? Arranged an appointment with the class teacher to discuss exactly what is going on and how best to move forward and put an end to it? Have you asked to see their bullying policy and talked it through with the teacher concerned? If you have done all of this and got nowhere, you have my sympathies. However, there is still loads that you can do to help resolve this problem without resorting to transferring your child or confronting the bullys parents in a slanging match at the school gates (not that you necessarily would). I have loads of possible strategies for you if they would help.
Sorry if I sound a bit cross - late night and early morning thanks to my DD. I wrote a good post for you and then my computer crashed - this one is not nearly as succinct as I am rushing, hope it still makes sense. I understand how awful it is when a child gets bullied - I dread the day when my child comes home upset from school as it will take everything in me to deal with it calmly..

At the secondary school I work at we also have an active anti-bullying policy which is followed in such circumstances. Bullying is seen as a major isssue and is always treated seriously here. Repeat offences will lead to serious actions including suspension. But both parties are involved - the bully to try to stop it, the person being bullied to counsel them , etc.

You must get in touch with your child's school and see what their policy is, and follow it through. If you try and work with the school then it is more likely to be dealt with effectively rather tha going in all guns blazing. The school should be there to help your child in these circumstances, but obviously they do need to find out the stories on both sides first before they can do much. I know it muct be awful if your child is the victim but hang in there and hopefully it will be sorted sooner rather than later.

Firstly, thank you very very much for ALL your responses and for taking the time to reply. It is really good to see what you have to say.

STRIPYMOUSE, thank you very much for writing again and you didn't sound cross but I could understand if you were. I WOULD VERY MUCH LIKE TO HEAR WHAT YOUR STRATEGIES ARE WHENEVER YOU HAVE CHANCE TO WRITE AGAIN.

I am still very concerned/worried that in our particular circumstances things wont be resolved easily. The school does not see it as bullying and maybe it isn't but it is verging very close to the line. Being pushed around and if you hear some of the ways ds has tried to cope you would cry. The primary school in question does not seem to have resolved such problems in the past and this particular bullying has been excused in the past and only last week directly to me as:- this child "has problems at home" and so "does not know any better". This of course makes me very cross as it seems as if they make far too many allowances for the child's behaviour because of this and so others suffer not just mine but my child it has been discovered has finally decided enough is enough and is now crying a lot, feeling ill a lot, etc etc etc. I am cross because like any normal parent, I do not send my child to primary school to be left to cope on his own and my child does not feel that he is being helped even though they have said tell us if there is a problem, (LOL!). I worry as I do not want ds to have to move school (he has made some lovely friends and why should he start all over again) plus what if the other school is just as bad etc etc. I could go on but I will phone the school soon now that you have put further thoughts into my head. I had been told ages ago that if you become a parent who complains they stop listening. I try to help out in the school and be positive but now this has come to a front I will probably become known as "it's her again" but what else can I do? DH is behind me but what good are we to our ds if the school is ineffectual. I try to make our ds assertive but I am no expert in how to do this. Last night I tried to find helpful information via the internet but got nowhere really.

Sorry to have gone on so long if you have got this far thank you again for taking the time.

With all respect to the teachers here who have taken the time and trouble to offer Crossma such good advice, my experience and that of many other parents is closer to Crossma's more often than not. Before this is taken as an attack on teachers, whilst not a teacher myself I am the daughter of one (retired) and know first hand how hard some teachers work and how much they care and try to do the right thing. However, it seems to me that Crossma's school is not recognising the seriousness of her ds's situation. Making excuses for the bullying condones it, denies it and simply allows it to carry on. I wish you luck Crossma when you next contact your school.

My son started school last September - he went straight into Year 1 with a class of children who had already been at school full-time for a year. (We moved house).

When he started school he had no idea how to behave in the playground, and especially during the long lunch break went completely wild, and ended up hurting other children. He was only just 5, but was big for his age. His behaviour included banging other children's head on the ground ... this wasn't because he had 'problems at home', he was just struggling to cope ...

Anyway, the school's response was fantastic. He was "spoken to" by the dinner ladies and his class teacher; he was hauled in to see the Head and the Deputy Head on a couple of occasions. They made it very clear to him that the school expected high standards of behaviour, and hurting other children was completely unacceptable. They also gave him a target to not get in trouble for a week, and get a sticker. Not get in trouble for a month and get a certificate in praise assembly. Also a week later he got summoned to see the Head - for praise for good work. Also the school communicated very closely with us, so that ds1 knew that we were completely aware of everything that was going on too. We didn't punish him further in any way, but we did praise him when he turned the corner and started to behave.

This approach certainly worked, and he has not got in trouble again for this sort of behaviour at school.

It was absolutely horrific to go through - some old posts on here about it - I cried for a whole day one day, and couldn't sleep at nights. But it was fantastic when he turned the corner.

What a fantastic story of the right way to do things, KMG

My nanny's dd goes to a school in Fulham, she was bullied and they have a new mediation type of policy. The mediator sits down with the bully, the bullied child and the parents and they all talk it out calmly, find out why the bully felt it necessary to do it etc.

The bully apparantly ended up apologising and admitting that it was because he felt insecure and fancied her!

It has all been very successful and I believe they are extending it to other schools.

What does IYSWIM stand for? sorry to have to ask! KMG1 glad all went well for your ds - it's really good that the school did such a good job of helping in the right way.

IYSWIM - If you see what I mean

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robinw - yes you were right - not cross at all with crossma but just so frustrated that with all the info out there there are still a minority of schools who seem to allow bullying to go on and on unresolved and how this gives schools who are really trying hard a bad name.

Crossma - I would give you my email address and talk at depth that way as I would love to help only (typically0 it is not working. My DH has changed accounts all around as he was getting over 500 junk mail items a day on his business account and none fo the settings are working at all...AAGH!
Just a few questions to help me give a few possible tips - is there one or more bully? are they boys? in the same class/sit near him or do they meet up at lunch/break times? Does the bully(s)? Exactly how long has it go on for and what form does it take? does the bully do it in secret (ie. knows he is doing wrong) or does he do it in a deliberately public way to humiliate him (loudly, often they rope in other children unconnected to enhance embarrassment - enjoying an audience). Has there been a trigger incident that your DS can identify - eg. your DS got a prize for a painting, your DS accidentally laughed when the bully tripped over once... or does the bully treat lots of children like it - random bullying? What tactics has your son tried and why does he think they have failed?
Sorry to ask loads of questions, but it will really help get a picture of what is going on and see what can be done. I am glad you took my message as it was intended - reading it back I could see that you could have been forgiven for thinking I was having a go at you - but I wasn?t - just keen to help.

sorry - in a hurry Crossma - typing was appalling there - wiggly 2 yr old on my knee wanting to play on the computer! Off line now to play Jay Jay the Jet Plane

Stripymouse many many thanks again. Know how it is I have a wiggly 2 year old too at the moment so will try to be straight to the point... it has been on and off for nearly 2 years and at first we thought things might improve think they did on and off. Mainly pushing ds around and down and kicking, all in the game but lots of boys playing together and only this one hurts ds. Yes it has and does happen to others too but ds is youngest and seems to have become an easier target. If he tells as they are supposed to the boy says it was an accident (again and again and again). DS given up telling as nothing changed, until it got so bad again. DS resorted to sitting out of the game, wait for it... sitting with head firmly against bench so that said boy can't push his head to hurt it nor "strangle my neck". DS isn't particularly bright just your average child and doesn't get more praise than others plus they are not in the same class so it all happens at playtime. It could be said that the boy just plays too roughly (but toilet incidents which I can't go into here, are deliberate and the neck incidents too). Ds tries best to avoid boy but apart from sitting out of the game/play he can't as the boy just makes his presence known no matter what ds does. I have tried giving him ideas too of how to speak to the boy plus trying to get ds and friends to deal with the boy as a group but they are really not capable of that it seems. I have spoken to the other mothers ages ago when they were all affected but no-one would go as far as making a point of speaking to the teachers/head about it so ds and me stand alone in the cold and it's I'm alright Jack. Thinking last night of moving house so can move school without it looking as if we moved sch coz of problemz...soprry have to end

meant to say robinw thank you for www/site and your points too but stripymouse be assured that I value your time and points very very much at the moment - so whenever you or anyone else can respond I am extremely grateful as really want this to end it's breaking my heart to take him to school at the moment.

Dear Crossma, sorry to hear you are feeling so bad but there is nothing worse than your child suffering is there? If this has been going on for 2 years I can't believe how patient you have been, the school seem to be taking the view that you are putting up with it so why should they bother. If you are thinking of taking such a drastic step as moving house then you must act by having a meeting with the head, putting it in writing and asking for a plan to be made to deal with this problem. What the school are doing is not good enough.

Crossma, I agree with Cam. Having just read your posts I'm horrified and feel so sorry for your son. I don't have any experience but just wanted to say that I too think you should go and make a lot of fuss about this with the head. This just shouldn't be tolerated and I'd be hopping mad were it my child. Sorry, nothing constructive to suggest but I just wanted to add my sympathy.

crossma, you say you are considering moving your son to another primary school. I have to say in your position I might think that's the best answer. Much as I believe in negotiation and working with the school, from what you've said there are strong reasons to reject this course of action now. Or at least be prepared to.

From reading your posts I see you have tried to raise the issue with his teachers in the past 2 years? What about giving it your all, just the once more? but a time limit, see if there have been results, and if not then then move your son away.

You seem to have so much against you - no other parent will support you in this, the school don't follow an anti bullying policy and haven't taken you seriously to date, and, most importantly your son is having a miserable time in the playground. You sound at the end of your tether. Is a prolongued battle worth it?

I take it your son is at primary school so he's not following any exam syllabus. I am guessing but is he around 7-ish? if so, he'll have time to settle into a new primary school and he'll have a fresh start away from this bully and away from the damaging indifference of adults. Yes, in some ways it's admmitting defeat and yes it's difficult to move a child, but IME not impossible - my son has settled happily at three primary schools and I know plenty of other children who've happily moved primary schools too.

If you still want to fight this school you can continue to do that when your son is at another school. Keep your ear to the ground, be ready to pass on your knowledge to other parents of bullied children at the school.

I would only suggest this as a last resort - confront the school first, communicate with them, try to find a solution, but keep this as plan B.

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STRIPYMOUSE whenever you get chance I would love to hear your suggestions (but I understand it isn't always easy so will keep checking for your reply only hope you see this as it keeps falling off the list of active conversations)

THANK YOU again for your replies, I haven't managed to speak to the head again who has been off sick since Friday afternoon. So, at present we are waiting for an official appointment instead of popping in or catching the teacher in the playground. We didn't want to make it too official as someone said that that could well make things worse for ds, "surprising how much children get to hear" I was told! Haven't had chance to talk about the idea of moving to dh yet!

robinw truant officer idea sounds interesting will check that out, thanks.

Crossma, can I ask you who told you "surprising how much children get to hear?"