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Behaviour/development

Talk to others about child development and behaviour stages here. You can find more information on our development calendar.

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Original poster

My child is having a tantrum WWYD

26 replies

PavlovtheCat · 10/03/2010 09:44

I guess it should have gone in WWYD, but its also a behaviour thing.

DD asked me if I wanted a glass of milk, i absentmindedly said 'yes' because, well i wasn't really listening tbh . So when dh told her he was going to make a coffee she got all upset and said 'mama wants milk!' so i said 'oh yes i did didn't i? ok only a small glass though'.

Now, DH gave her the milk to give to me, both stood next to me, and she almost spilled it so DH said 'oh let me take that' and took it from her and passed it to me 'are you going to share with me pavlovsgirl?' 'YOOOOOOU gave it to mama, not me! I wanted to give it to her, i wanted to give it to her, YOU gave it to her!

Now she is in hysterics in the front roon, desperately upset.

Now, should we let her get over it, or give the milk to DH to give to her to give me to me, to calm it all down (which it will instantly?) Or is that Giving In?

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Original poster

PavlovtheCat · 10/03/2010 09:45

Oh forgot to say she is 3.8

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alardi · 10/03/2010 09:47

Wait until she calms down then talk about how it's important to not spill milk. Once she accepts that, of course let her have the milk. Try to pay attention to her ritual ('how' it's done) next time, but otherwise... plan on a big glass of wine this evening.

Original poster

PavlovtheCat · 10/03/2010 09:59

alardi you are so right about it being a 'ritual' she is so into things being 'just so' and if it is done even slightly wrong, or more to the point if we interfere, she absolutely hates us doing anything for her, putting her shoes on, or her trousers, or getting her in the bath, or getting into her carseat,

Well. DH said 'sorry for taking the milk and upsetting you, i did not want you to spill it'

cue more wailing 'i wasn't going to spill it, you said I was, but i wasn't i was being careful, i wasn't going to spill it and you took it away from me and I wanted to give it to mama and you gave it to mama instead

So, DH said 'would you like me to get it from mama so you can give it to her?' 'yes please' calms down, wipes tears away.

Then, this is the funniest bit. She sat on the edge of the bed, I gave the glass to DH, he went to give it to her and she toppled backwards and cue much much more wailing and DH and I creasing with laughter (quietly so she can't hear of course)

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Original poster

PavlovtheCat · 10/03/2010 10:05

So, is it better to let her have things 'just so' all the time to avoid tantrums, or to let her realise she cannot always get things her own way exactly for whatever reason and that is ok, just let her tantrum?

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Original poster

PavlovtheCat · 10/03/2010 10:10

She is in fact very shouty today. She is blowing raspberries, slamming doors, being generally crabby.

I wonder if she is coming down with something?

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GibbonInARibbon · 10/03/2010 10:13

DD is like this I must hear 'I want to do it ALL by myself' 100 times a day.

If it's something she can do, I let her. If I know she'll need help I have found explaining this before hand stops her getting upset.

GibbonInARibbon · 10/03/2010 10:14

It's when DH dives in to help whilst she is trying to do something that causes the issues.

Original poster

PavlovtheCat · 10/03/2010 10:33

Gibbon, that is exactly the same here. I tell her she can ask for me to help if she needs it, or else I ask her 'do you want mama to do that bit?' and let her say yes or no. DH just takes over and it drives her insane, and she gets very angry at him.

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vesela · 10/03/2010 11:10

I don't think it's wanting things just so so much as feeling a failure because she nearly spilt the milk and wasn't allowed to give it to you when she wanted to make you happy. It's just like those threads on here when people say "My mother visited and she kept finding things to clean - I felt like such a failure." And a bit "My MIL's giving DS a trike for his birthday and I sooo wanted to choose his first trike!" I identify fairly closely with both...

I think all you can do is when she's stopped crying, go into a big spiel about how next time she can give you some milk, that would be lovely and you will be very happy etc., but there's one rule, isn't there - if it's very full, Daddy or I have to hold it. But next time we'll make sure it's not too full, won't we. Etc.

vesela · 10/03/2010 11:23

p.s. sorry, I meant to say "in this case I don't think it isn't about wanting things just so." Obviously there are also the classic "but I wanted the green cup!" type of arguments, where to be honest I just plonk the "wrong" cup down and am pretty firm about it not mattering.

Original poster

PavlovtheCat · 10/03/2010 11:30

vesela i feel like that about anyone doing anything for the first time with both my children. I have to force myself to let DH do some of the firsts. We took DS swimming at 13 weeks and I got into the water and DH said 'pass him to me' and I had him cuddled to me and I said, very possessively 'NO, i mean, not yet!'

I do agree that she was upset that she could not do something she wanted to do. Also, it has made me think of other instances and a particular common theme. She does not yet understand 'could have' or 'might' or 'nearly'. Things are still very black and white, the milk either spilt, and she says sorry, or it didn't and nothing was wrong, so in this case, she did not spill the milk and was not going to spill the milk in her eyes so she did not understand why it was taken. DH and I have said, in future, we would get her to hold it again with both hands and guide her.

So, letting her do things as close to her own way when possible, is ok? Not making a rod for our own backs (as DH says?). How about when it takes forever and we are in a rush (such as putting shoes on, doing them up, when we need to get somewhere?)

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GibbonInARibbon · 10/03/2010 11:37

With the dressing thing I say to DD 'we have to leave in 15 mins, if you would like to get dressed all by yourself you must do it now, otherwise I will have to dress you'

Or 'could yo be a very big girl and get dressed now please so we won't be late'

These usually work (not the owrd usualy )

GibbonInARibbon · 10/03/2010 11:38

sorry Pav that should say 'note the word' typing too fast here

Adair · 10/03/2010 11:46

Sometimes I 'give in' and sometimes I say 'oh sorry darling, I didn't know. You can hold it NEXT time'. In this instance, I'd prob give her a hug and some sympathy - and let her give it to me. I think letting her do things her own way unless there is a reason she can't is fine tbh - sometimes that reason for me is 'oh sorry, the pink one is in the dishwasher' or 'oops, i forgot - silly mummy'. If it will take 2 seconds to give it to her for her to give to you - why ever not?

With shoes I'd say, you can do one and I will do the other. A lot is about acknowledging their feelings I think (am working it out though - dd has only just started having breakdowns due to not getting her way . Am going back to basics )

vesela · 10/03/2010 12:22

Yes, I think the best thing is to focus on the "next time." As you say, it's an easier concept for children to grasp than could/would, with the added advantage that at this stage (my DD is just 3, but is 3.8 different here?) "next time" seems just around the corner and they don't think "but I'll have to wait a whole day before I get a chance again...waah!" (This morning I took DD to preschool - DH usually takes her, and I didn't know that she ALWAYS rings the bell herself. I rang it, and Trouble Ensued. Distraction didn't work - only oh dear, sorry, I didn't know, next time.

and when you think about it, it's also the approach you and your husband took with regard to yourselves (next time we'll do this."

Have also tried to pare down to a few rules the times when I get to call the shots, no questions asked - we're in a hurry, it's dangerous.

I think what I struggle with more at the moment is the "own way" stuff that's more just plain selfishness. Yes, I know that it's a 2-3-year-old trait, but I often find myself thinking: "surely you can UNDERSTAND that DH wants to listen to this music, no, you don't like it but he does and it's his turn!"

vesela · 10/03/2010 12:27

Adair - re. giving them the cup they want if it's no extra bother to you - I think it all depends on how the request is made. If it's "I want the GREEN CUP NOW waaaaah!" then to give it is to give in to bad behaviour (unless they're happy to ask nicely when you suggest they do).

mixedraceparents · 10/03/2010 12:53

Well I have four kids and I have one who occasionally does this kind of thing. Generally I let him do it how he likes, ignore the tears and he calms down immediately. I would say in general he is happy, well behaved and obedient, so if he wants to fuss over one little thing then he can. I know I might not be the best answer, but it keeps us both happy. If he was deliberately naughty or something I might have to rethink that approach though. I also try to distract him. Any attempt to say a "No you won't" leads to an hour of crying, and with 3 other kids I just do not have the time.

Original poster

PavlovtheCat · 10/03/2010 18:16

Funny you mention the nursery thing. DH takes DD in the mornings, and I pick her up. Mostly. Except now, with a newborn, on the odd day, i can't get to pick her up or it is not convenient. I try my absolute damndest to get there for her but if I don't, and she is expecting me, she gets so cross! So we have to make sure if there is any chance i am not going to get her, she knows in advance so she is prepared, and even then it is not always going to work. First time it happened she was so upset the nursery manager had to help DH put her coat on and calm her down as she refused absolutely to do anything he said!

Her behaviour today has actually been impossible and this particular incident was just one of many many similar things today. Normally she is a lovely well natured obedient girl, with the odd moment like this, but today, she has decided for some reason to test us to the absolute full. I think I might actually do a thread specifically about this, as it encompasses a lot of behaviour that both DH and I struggled with today.

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Adair · 10/03/2010 19:41

Oh you have a newborn too!

Ah, just give her (and you) a break. She is all discombobulated and wants some reassurance. It'll be fine. Newborn and toddler was HARD. 18mths and nearly 4 - much easier! They aDORE each other now but she did have a wobbly patch for a bit (ours was mostly around bedtime), we tried to give her as much leeway as poss but still being firm and consistent (if that makes sense) and she came right out of it with time. THey are so small really though we can have such high expectations...

Original poster

PavlovtheCat · 10/03/2010 21:02

adair, yes you are so right. We talked about that today, DH and I. DD is so grown up in her ways a lot of time, in particular in her communication. Her language skills are so honed, so accurate and well formed, it fools us into treating her more grown up than she is, thinking that she understands things because she says she does, or because she questions like a 5yo. But she is not a 5yo, she is not 4 yet, and we need to remind ourselves that she is younger than she sometimes seems.

I have done another thread about her unruly behaviour today, she has been hard work!

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driedapricots · 11/03/2010 20:35

i'm reading this thread with interest as have just posted a similar one and all the obsessive stuff you detail is exactly what we're dealing with - it's strangely reassuring to know someone else is going through it even though i wouldn't wish the day i've just had one my worst enemy - so my post read:
have just put 25 month old down...she woke at 5am and we have had severe tantrums almost constantly throughout the day. couldn't get her to have her luchtime nap, nor eat anything of substance which exasperated everything too. she eventaully crashed out after a huge crying/screaming fit at 4pm - i had to wake her at 6 to sort her out for bed and try and feed her and all hell broke loose again until just now. i can visibly feel myself stopping shaking now, but an hour ago i was sobbing in the lounge as she screamed on the kitchen floor...every little thing set her off today and i mean into the most severe tantrums that i just could not coax her out of..am i doing the right thing by ignoring her?? she just pushes me away anyway but then gets herself so worked up she's almost sick and is shaking and sobbing...luckily she is at nursery tomorrow but i feel the same - i am dreading another day with her. i am having awful thoughts like i just want to hit her (which i know i wont do but the thought alone is scary) is this normal?? i'm also 5 nmonths pregnant which doesn't help in terms of strength of emotions..am desperate for some advice from someone who's been in the same boat. why is my child such hard work?? apparently she's quiet as a mouse at nursery and just saves it up for the days i'm off work i reckon. help!!! i am so scared of the second one coming along now, how the hell will we cope??!!

vesela · 11/03/2010 20:53

DD went through a tantrumy phase at about 24 months.

I think the best thing is to ignore it. The best advice I've read re. tantrums (from Harvey Karp, better known for his baby book but the toddler book is quite good) is that the brain can't take a lot in during a tantrum (the left brain shuts down and only the right brain is working - apparently applies to adults too...) so they can't process language much and don't understand what you say to them, unless it's extremely simple. You have to save the lessons and the rule-making for afterwards.

vesela · 11/03/2010 20:56

sorry, I also meant to say that DD's tantrumy phase at 24 months was a lot shorter-lived than I was expecting. I thought "here we go... terrible twos" but it's much more of a short-lived phase thing that comes and goes, at least in her case. So in four months' time things could be a lot better.

vesela · 11/03/2010 21:01

and I see now that you were also talking more about ignoring vs. coaxing her out - prob. best to ignore, or maybe say nothing and then after a while you could say "Do you want a hug?" and then give her one if she says yes - that seems to work with DD and she'll calm down.

driedapricots · 11/03/2010 21:02

dd is 27 months and these have been going on for about 6 months..some days worse than others, but today tops the lot! yes, the bit about the brain shutting down makes sense..it's so hard to stay rational though when trying to deal with it. i hope to god things are better in 4 months!

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