7yr old DD pulled a knife on me!

[ReneRusso]

My DD has a terrible temper (have posted on this before). She tends to lose it over something very trivial. Tonight it was because she couldn't find a pencil, and also was struggling a bit with her homework. She found some reason to blame me and amid the crying and shouting, she lifted a kitchen chair upside down and approached me with it, then pulled a knife from the knife rack . She didn't actually get near me with either the chair or knife and quickly put them down, but I am seriously worried about her behaviour. What should I do? I am not really in the habit of drastic punishment, and I haven't really found a punishment that actually results in improved behaviour. I realise I am obviously doing something woefully wrong in my parenting. Should I be getting professional help for this kind of behaviour? She is generally an angel at school or at other people's houses. Thanks for listening, any advice or comments gratefully received.

i would phone the police

i'm not kidding.

i think you need some help from social services and a police referal might be a quick way of getting things done

the catch 22 is - when you phone SS is that if you say "help me i have x problem" they know you are a concerned parent not a neglectful one.

i would phone police. i wouldnt have any hesitation in getting the police involved if my children threatened me in any way.

Well it's very good that she quickly put them down - shows she does have a sense of right/wrong, acceptable/unacceptable. But yes, that is quite scary -you must feel shaky.

Does your school have a Parent Support Advisor? It's worth asking at the school office if there is one and if you can get in touch - no need to tell the office why. The PSA will point you in the right direction - maybe there are some anger management/support groups for children in your area.

If she hasn't learnt the behaviour from you or her father, then you can't possibly be blaming yourself. She just needs extra help learning to control her anger, just as other children need help with other issues.

I think it depends on whether you thought she might use either the chair or the knife. If you do, then yes get help. If it's something she knows will create a reaction/ show how angry she is then I'd say it's not quite so scary. The thing that makes me say that is your comment she's okay at school/ elsewhere. So many kids take it all out on their parents. A knife is extreme, but then again she is only seven. fwiw I'd go the other way from drastic punishment and sit and talk to her about how / why she does it. See if you can help her stop whatever it is from escalating. If you can't then yes definitely get help.

Hi...This is probably part of a much greater problem or dynamic and so to try to offer advice here would be a little like mending a broken arm with a sticking plaster.

The fact that she can behave elsewhere is positive. It means that the liklihood that this behaviour is outside of her control is unlikely. That is the silver lining to this cloud.

It is probably more a case of what the dynamics are at home and they are usually very complex.

Behavour such as this can escalate if not addressed and at this age, it can be resolved but what else is going on?

Punishment is positive if done in a positive way. There is nothing wrong at all with showing that we absolutely will not tolerate a certain behaviour and so putting methods into practise is probably what you need to redefine boundaries and expectations.

Do you think there are other things going on?

Agree with Smee, not punishment. Normally I'd be with Custardo (and I do agree you need some help) but she is only like this with (safe) you.

She is angry.

She does not know how to manage that anger. I suggest you try to get her/you some help to express her anger safely - from the library or from the Educational Psychologist at school.

Might be worth seeing if there is something else going on that is making her frustrated/angry/out of control (that comes out when she can't find a pencil).

She needs hugs, and talking.

(but yes, kids DO like boundaries, generally as they make them feel safe.)

Thanks for the replies. Hassled, pretty sure there is no parent support advisor as its quite a small school. Might be some resources like that locally though, I'll have a dig around.

kormachameleon, I'm sure you are right and I am being a bit lame about not punishing. It's just my natural slightly wish-washy parenting style, but I can see it isn't working. She is motivated by TV and pocket money, and those are quite easy to restrict so I will give it a try.

Thing is she sounds very angry with you - we've all been there and it's not fair or even rational probably - it might not even be about you, but about the fact she can only be like that with you iyswim. So if you punish by taking away the things she likes then it might increase the anger so make things worse. I'm not saying you can accept being attacked - that would be madness in every way. But Adair's right i think. She needs hugs and talking. Maybe if you can't sort, a family counselling session might help. A friend of mine did those with her boys and it helped immensely, as it wasn't about the one boy she had the problems with, but about all of them. He really opened up because everybody wasn't constantly on his case. So if you and she can't find a way through, maybe family counselling might be worth looking into.

mrspoppins I am trying to think what is going on that could be contributing. Home life is far from perfect, is anybody's? We moved and so both DDs had to change schools last year, so that was difficult for them, but they are, on the face of it, very happy at school. I am about to have another baby, but they are both quite excited about that, and possibly a bit too old too be jealous about that. But that might be a contributing factor. DH travels a lot and so isn't around that much, and when he is around he can be quite grumpy and stressed. I'm sure that isn't great for any of us. DD is very close to her big sister (age9) - I sometimes think they are a bit too close, share a room, and so they are often fighting for their own bit of attention and individuality IYKWIM. Does any of this sound like a significant part of the problem?

Adair, Smee, she does get quite a lot of hugs and love from me. We get on really well most of the time, and she gets lots of positivity from me. I honestly don't think she can really be angry with me. I think I'm an f'ing saint to be honest. I think she is angry, for some unknown reason, and is taking it out on me. I think it might be more about boundaries than about a lack of love. I do agree that talking is important. We just read a chapter of an anger management book (aimed at children) together and it was great, and then 5 minutes later she started crying again, and calling me names, because I made her put her light out. Family counselling would be great idea, but I am just imagining DH's face when I suggest it

The stress may be some of it and as you say, that is not unique! If you are the main childcarer and by the sounds of it very busy and probably exhausted, it may be that she sees it as a way to get attention from you. It is just an idea...without relly seing what is going on it is impossible to make proper judgements.

Do you have a routine at the end of a school day?

I like routine and am an advocate of it as not only does it help the child to know what is coming around the corner, it helps us too as parents to plan our day and ensure we fit in all the important bits.

What tends to happen with you guys?

We posted simultaneously! The example you give about the reading of the book and then the tantrum of the light suggests to me that she doesn't always have the light out as a matter of course and so suddenly being told to turn it off provokes a response that she is not thinking of or she doesn't know when you are going to say light out and she really needs/has to prepare herself for it.

The name calling is unacceptable and so she needs to know this.

She sounds like a little girl who needs to be counted down for things...in 15 minutes we are going to do x...just letting you know...ok sweetie, it's 10 mins now till we do x...ok..5 mins now and then when I tell you to do x you are going to do it really nicely and we'll have a great big hug...good girl!

That sort of thing...You may already do it but if not, it does work well with children who like to have control.

Sticker charts..I love them too and can get most kids to do most things at this age for a sticker!!!

Stickers for name calling would be taken off...powerful and more powerful than being told off.

Mine are teenagers and stickers hold no fascination sadly any longer!!!

Never fear her reaction to a telling off or sticker removal. If she thinks that you are worried and perhaps it shows she will exploit that. A few weeks of a tough Mummy with as many cuddles as you can find the time for and as much praise for when she does good stuff but no nonsense punishment for the stuff you want to eliminate will work wonders.

How exciting...another on the way!!!

Our routine is fairly consistent in terms of what we do (homework, supper, bath or shower, maybe a bit of telly, reading), but the timings might vary quite a bit according to what suits. I think I could be a lot clearer on this, and specify times for getting ready for bed, lights out etc. I think DD would find this easier to cope with, she does like to feel in control.

I'm not working at the moment and am always around basically, and although it will be harder when the baby shows up, I am not too busy to pay her attention, but it's not one-on-one attention. It's always the two of them, which is not ideal. Some one on one would be beneficial I think.

Sticker charts... yes this might help. I've done this sort of thing before and either the kids or I have got bored of them after a while. But I think I need to get my act together and make things clear and quite regimented for all our sakes.

Thanks for your help mrsp

No, no, not angry at YOU. Angry about something. She takes it out on you because you are safe.

And not implying at ALL that she doesn't get lots of hugs, but that this is the approach you could/should take with this issue rather than the heavy punishment route. Agree with Smee it doesn't sound rational.

I also agree with mrspoppins, about prep/warnings for things, so she feels in control.

REally, you need to know what it is she is feeling a loss of control about. Family/counselling a good idea - don't put your dh's feelings above your daughters (speaks bitterly from experience).

It's not you, you sound like you are a lovely mum and it's great she feels safe to express some of how she feels. But it's your job to now seek advice (as you are ) help her work out how to deal with those feelings (and if there is something going on, to stop it).

ReneRusso my ds, who's now 10, blows up like this. It's really tough because it seems to come from nowhere and there's no time for him to get control of himself. It's like he flares up in an instant.

I feel pretty much out of my depth but will persevere.

Funnily enough my dh is away a lot and grumpy when he's around. I wonder if it's a factor that we don't have as much routine as other families (DH is an actor).

My DS has T1 diabetes which is part of the problem and luckily for me his team have put us on the waiting list so he can see an art therapist. I feel he must have underlying stress and anger all the time if he can flare up like this.

My family life was really calm and outbursts were very infrequent. DH's family, on the other hand, were always kicking off and have terrible tempers.

A mumsnetter advised me to get A Volcano in My Tummy which has some good stuff in it. There are exercises you can do with your dd to help her understand that anger is OK, but needs to be expressed well.

BTW I have three other children. Two are mild mannered and rarely, if ever, kick off. My 5 year old ds, however, is beginning to look like he might take after his big brother.

Have a think but what about trying this...

Write down the routine and tell the girls that you want to start getting this organised for them so that when baby arrives you all know what you are doing...Chat over it with them in a very animated and excited way. THIS IS GOING TO BE FUN !!!!!
This is just a routine idea...

Make her homework time a special time..You could have a pot in the kitchen or wherever that always has a few pens/pencils a rubber and ruler and colouring stuff so doing homework can be started easily.

Make a drink on return from school, Let her have a banana or something whilst the kettle is on making your coffee ( a drink is always handy when helping with homework. It stops you looking as if you are staring over her!) and then sit down at the table with her. You could easily do this with both of them. So long as you are there solely for them and their reading/ writing they won't care you are with them both. It is mostly adults that worry about it being one to one..

Homework done nicely earns TV time for that day. Not done nicely..no TV (even if it means the eldest gets TV and the youngest doesn't. If that happens, I would take her up for an early bath.)

Then tea...engage them in setting table/clearing away after

Then TV...before bathtime but not after. Record programmes they like to watch so that it is always the right time for something on TV rather than just turn on and see what we can goggle at!! Alternatively, know what time their programme starts and make sure they are ready then.

Bath time/ Teethbrush last wee and bed

Once in bed...story or chat time then love you..light out and door shut.

They will know that this is their routine and this is what you will be doing and it will not change for a while.

Good behaviour at bedtime earns a sticker which they can put on their chart as they get into bed. Rudeness after the sticker goes on means it is removed.

Pasta in a see through plastic ( no harm then if thrown)jar is a good reward system for other behaviours downstairs. Once the pasta fills the jar, then a treat is given...cake out..friend over...cinema etc.. according to budget. It should take about a couple of weeks to fill the jar. Remove 1 piece when behaviour is not good.

This is juat all part and parcel of kids growing up. When is your little one due?

She has anger management issues.

You need to implement a zero tolerance attitude to any outbursts by her, including name calling etc, while at the same time giving her strategies to use when she feels out of control with anger and give her more clear boundaries and routines to help her feel secure.

I agree with MrsPoppins too, but don't forget that as well as doing what she has suggested, you also need to not tolerate her outbursts at all and not be wishy washy about coming down hard on her with a consequence if and when she kicks off.

Thanks Spidermama, useful to hear of someone in the same boat. That book looks worth a try.

mrspoppins, DD3 is due on April 6th. Any improvements I make to the routine might be thrown off course by this I guess! But I'll try. Some great ideas, thanks. I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by everything I have to do. I will try to put a few of these ideas in place. 1/2 term next week, so everything gets a bit sloppy in terms of bedtimes, but I can still clamp down on rudeness and reward good behaviour. I feel a bit concerned that I would be making them compete with each other over the stickers or pasta. I feel it could get a bit arbitrary over what deserves a pasta in the jar for example, and so deemed unfair by one or other of them. I will give it some thought though.

I don't think seven is too old to be jealous of the new baby. Ds was 7 when dd was born and it had a huge impact on his behaviour.
But, you must not tolerate outbursts like the ones you described.
Yes, anger mangement, great. Finding out where does a problem lay- a must.
But, first of all- some old-fashioned discipline. Actions have consequences. It will actually make your dd feel safer, knowing that she's got boundaries and that you are in control. So, any time she does something similar- she gets sent to her room, no tv, no pocket money, whatever it is that she will miss. She cannot grow up thinking it's allowed to behave that way.
I would hedge my bets on her being disturbed by the imminent arrival- she might not even realise that herself.
But no more wishy-washy!