exasperated and at wits end with ds (nearly 11) *long...Sorry!!*

[AnAngelWithin]

I really don't know what to do. I know a lot of you will probably say its normal behaviour, but seriously, I can't cope with him anymore. He can be so nasty to his siblings. He has started throwing things at me in temper, i swear he hates me, won't do a single thing I ask him, and makes such a big deal about everything. He lies about things, including having done his homework (though I have started checking up on him with this recently which he hates!) He physically hurts his siblings, games always have to be how HE wants them to be otherwise he turns nasty (needless to say the other dcs have had enough of this!) If they are in the way when he is having a strop, they get shoved or hit, even right in front of me and DH, then he tries to make out he didn't do anything! When we saw him right in front of our faces do it! He has been getting worse the past year as time has gone on. He does all this to his siblings, yet he seems incapable of doing anything alone. He won't even go upstairs and brush his teeth unless there is someone else up there!

We had a thing a few weeks ago with him a few weeks ago where he was coming home, with all his fruit still in his lunchbox. We gave him chance to eat it, he didn't take it, so we started taking the 'treat item' out of the box instead. The fruit started being eaten according to him. Looked in his bag yesterday because I could smell something horrid....yep...you guessed it.... at least 10 pieces of rotten fruit in his bag, squashed in with his PE kit he told me he had already put in the wash, all over homework etc. I ended up just tipping it all out over the kitchen floor and made him sort it out. The smell was making me heave.

He has eczema on his hands really bad. He refuses to put the cream on to help it. I don't know what I am supposed to do, he sits there saying they look digusting, yet he won't do anything about it. I have even tried telling him unless he starts putting the cream on, I will have to take him to the doctors every day to make them do it for him. I can't physically do it for him as he won't let me, plus I am not sure I should handle the cream being pregnant.

We have recently in the past few weeks, started letting him have a bit more freedom and responsibility, thinking maybe that would help. He wanted to go to football club after school on a wednesday so we have started letting him walk home from there on his own (only about a 10 minute walk with proper crossings over the road) He really enjoys it, but god help me when we have to remind him at the weekend that his boots STILL need cleaning. We give him chance and time to do it of his own accord, but come the weekend, we have to tell him over and over to do it. He goes to a martial arts club on a monday evening doing judo (been doing that for about 4 years now and he is pretty good at it now, we take him to compeitions and everything) I go out of my way to get him there, its quite a way away, I am pregnant with dc5 (due in 16 weeks) and I don't drive, have to take all the other kids with me, and DH is at college that evening doing a degree. He goes to a friends house sometimes. So it's not like we don't let him do anything. We have tried stopping him going to these things when we feel his behaviour has been too much, but it doesn't make any difference.

Yet as well, he doesn't want to go on the school trip planned for november for 3 days that means he will have to stay away from home!!! I don't understand him i really don't. What are we doing wrong? Me and DH always show a united front with discipline etc, we always have. But even DH has had enough. He said yesterday that he couldn't even tell ds just to calm down playing too rough without getting a gobfull back and being yelled at. Even though DH didn't even raise his voice, just calmly asked him!

There are so many other things I could go on about, but I think I have gone on enough at the moment! Sorry!!!

Sorry, this will be brief, but I wanted to reply as I can feel your pain ....

Something occurs straight away :

Is it possible he's having a hard time at school with friends/so-called friends or bullies - and taking out his frustration and anger of you and the family ?
This could be an explanation of why he doesn't want to go on the trip ?

If not, the fact he doesn't want to go on the trip suggests that, even if not being bullied, he's maybe struggling a bit with his approaching teenager- hood and independence (which comes with responsibilities). Maybe he's nervous about being away from you ? Maybe the baby coming is adding to that feeling .

I wonder if this age are a bit like 3 year olds, in that they are caught between two stages - boy and teenager (baby and child in a toddler's case).

My oldest is 9 so I can't speak from personal experience. Hopefully someone else will come along to help if what I have said is barking up the wrong tree !

not that brief ....

I agree wtih Jamie. My ds is 10 (in Y6) and has recently come through a phase of being bullied at school. We did not know he was being bullied but his behaviour at home became awful - he was nasty to his younger sister, he was rude, sullen, down, argumentative. He changed his mind about going on the school trip (even though he has been on plenty residential trips both with school and CubScouts)and he became quite clingy to me. We initially put it down to hormones and the start of becoming a teenager.
Then the bullying came to light, school stepped in to help sort it out, and now ds is returning to the much nicer chap he always used to be

So, long story short, there may be something going on with your ds other than mere hormones adn becoming a teenager.

My DS is quite little still so I don't have much experience of dealing with older kids - I hope someone comes along who can help soon.

It just reminded me a little of the relationship between myself and my mother a little bit. We didn't understand each other at all. We argued terribly with each other most days from about aged 8 or 9 till I left home at 16 - and then some - and as I expect you can imaging the situation wasn't improved at all by teenage hormones!

By the time I was a teenager the relationship with my mum had totally broken down. We have a good relationship now, but only because with time and maturity I have learnt to understand her better, as an adult, and we have both made efforts to repair the relationship.

I'm not going to go into what was wrong between us as it might be totally different in your case, but I do want to urge to to consider family counselling. My mum suggested we go for counselling when I was about 13. I said yes, but nothing ever happened, I don't know why. I really wish we had gone. I can see now that we really could have benefited from a neutral third party helping us understand where each other were coming from, and I think it could have saved several more years at logger heads if we had tried to tackle it then, and it is a shame that we missed out on those years in a way.

Also, one last thing. I knew that I was trouble / a pain / argumentative etc, but - although I was loved - I lost sight of that in all the arguments. I remember being quite surprised once when one of my grandparents told me that my parents loved me. It would have made a difference I think if I had felt more appreciated. I just felt like I was trouble, and in the way a lot of the time.

he isn't being bullied (he was in reception class but that was years ago!). He is one of the most popular kids in the class (not being big headed or anything!!) He has got loads of friends. He isn't at all clingy to me. We have never been thats close (traumatic birth and family taking over meant I wasn't allowed to bond with him properly) I tell him I love him, he never says it back. I always make sure we don't part company even at bed time on a bad note.

Sorry cross posts - no one had posted when I started my ramble!

AnAngelWithin - would you consider counselling? My troubled behaviour certainly stemmed in part from feeling rejected by my mother.

You said you didn't bond properly. Perhaps this could be a good starting point for you and a counsellor to work on?

Do you ever get a chance to do stuff together that you both enjoy?

And I should add - she wasn't actually rejecting me as such. She loved me very much. But from my viewpoint as a child that's not what it looked like to me. That's why I think counselling can help in a situation where two people just don't seem to understand each other.

I may be pulling this out of my arse but here goes.

You have 4 Dcs and DC5 on the way. You have a busy home life and DH is doing a degree. Your DS is a popular boy at school.

Okay .That all gives me a picture of an outwardly busy ,happy ,normal household but for an 11 year old maybe he has a lot of 'responsibilty' on his shoulders. He is the oldest and as such -even if unspoken -is expected to be a role model. As a popular member of his class ditto. He has other activities that require him to take responsibility for himself. Hes only 11 and perhaps he could do with some babying himself.Could you be ,unconsciously, putting too much on his shoulders-things that the other DC's aren't asked to do?
Might it be possible to do more hands on mothering with him? Not exactly reading bedtime stories on your knee but treating him as if he were a bit younger.
I am speaking from experience here but the reactions weren't so severe - but personalities differ so much.

It isnt easy, this parenting lark is it?

lowrib it just seems so scarey, having to take a 10 year old to counselling. It shouldn't have to be like that

SrStanislus, I see where you are coming from. This was something me and DH talked about in depth. We spoke to ds about it, and he said we don't make him do to much, it is just 'he hates being the oldest' All the dcs do have little jobs to do, they all have to make their beds and help tidy their rooms which I don't think is unreasonable. In the morning, they have additional jobs, DD2 (youngest) puts the water bottles in the school bags, DS2 puts the school shoes by the door, DD has her rabbit to see to and puts any toys on the floor in the basket on the stairs (they all empty this in the evening before bed between them) DS1's job. Just putting the lunch boxes in the bags. So as far as 'jobs' go, I don't think I ask an unreasonable amount from all of them, and ds1 certainly doesn't do more than the others.

I have asked him if he wants to come out biking with me etc, but he says he doesn't want to. Hands on mothering and treating him younger? How am i supposed to do that without belittling him as such?

I know it's hard, but I think that when they are behaving their worst (I have 2 boys), it's sometimes when we need to step back a bit from the discipline (I too am a pretty strong disciplinarian compared to some I know).

You are feeling angry and frustrated with him at the moment (no wonder - them hurting a sibling hurts us). You are doing the witholding treats etc, but maybe he needs you to spend time alone with him and attempt to listen to him. I find that bedtime is a good time to get through their defences.

Another thing occurs - when he is acting out, and after you have punished him, something I sometimes do with mine is to hold a Family Conference. We get a wooden spoon, and whoever is holding it gets to speak (without shouting or insulting anyone else). Use non-accusatory language ("I feel very disappointed when you ..."). This feels very artificial, but that in itself can make it quite fun. Works well in our house when the same issues keep arising and we are stuck.

If you really don't feel as bonded to him, and that he rejects your overtures, then I think Family Therapy could really help.

Sorry, forgot to say. When you are doing the wooden spoon thing, you repeat back to him what he has just said to you, so he knows you have "heard" and understood him. All family members join in.

Just noticed the bit about not wanting to go upstairs on his own. Is he sleeping OK ?

He seems fearful (eczema linked to that ?) - is this something new ? Just not sounding very happy. - and home is where he maybe feels safe enough to express this - although he's doing it in an indirect and destructive way.

My DS1 was the same as this last year when he was 10. He did come through it although can have the occasional temper outburst still now over the most seemingly silly of things!

We ended up going to see the Children and Adolescent Mental Health Service (CAMHS) via referal from our GP. Although the worst of the behaviour was over by the time we actually got to see someone, it still helped to sit down together (DH, DS1 and me) with the CAMHS person and discuss the situation. By doing this it showed DS1 that we were taking things seriously, that we cared about him and wanted to do what was best for him and that we wanted to listen to what he had to say.

Our involvement with CAMHS didn't go any further than having two hour long discussion sessions with them. DS1 was a lot calmer and the CAMHS guy seemed to think a lot of his behaviour was due to stress relating to high expectations at school during year 6, trying to balance school with the amount of swimming training he was doing (which he has since stopped doing) and the onslaught of body changes / hormones etc. We had also been broken into while on holiday and although the burglary was where we were holidaying, it made him feel insecure at home too.

I like the idea of the family conference and family therapy but appreciate with 4 DC and another on the way you may struggle to fit it all in!

Hope the situation resolves itself for you all soon.

Right. We have a bit of a break through. Last night, I decided to sit down with him, just the two of us and try and make some progress. To me, it appears he has some kind of OCD. The excema has been caused by excessive handwashing (i wondered where all the soap was going and just kept telling all the kids in general to ease off it!) He says he can't touch certain things without washing them. He has also said that he has to count things a certain number of times, and in bed at night he has to look at certain points in his room in the correct order a set number of times and swallow a few times, otherwise he is convinced he is going to die

He has also said he just hates being the eldest, but knows that there is nothing he can do about it. I asked him if he thought I was asking him to do too much. He said no way. If anything he said he wants to help more but when i thank him for helping me and say 'you didn't have to do it but thank you' he has interpreted as me not wanting him to help!!!

Anyway, now, we have decided that every sunday evening, me and him are going to talk about things, how he is feeling. We have agreed with DH as well, that we are going to make a real effort to not get cross with each other, and I will see how things go over the next month, if his handwashing etc doesn't improve, then I will ask about some kind of therapy. DS has agreed to this and said he would be willing to do this.

i have an 11yr old ds too..he has been difficult since i split with there dad last jan. Has there been any changes in yours or his life? My ds has had a lot of changes, the obvious one being me and his dad, moving schools and moving house at the same time. Plus a drop in my income as i lost my job in jan 2009 too. He can b nasty to his siblings but is still very good with the 4yr old..and he can get very angry about things..he has put holes in walls..broke things but with some patience and some alone time together..he is getting better. We use incentives such as rewarding good things..ie going to sit in room counting to ten to calm down..picking up toys..coming home when asked, going to bed when asked. Usually pocket money based..he loses certain amounts for bad behaviour..and gains for good behaviour. We also ground him, stop computer time, xbox etc.
It will get better just stick with it..ive done dvd nights with both the eldest, popcorn and a film at weekends..spending time with them and time for talking will help. And by all means look into ways for them to expell anger in a less dangerous manor..boxing clubs, judo, kickboxing, its not about fighting..it involves a lot of energy, disapline and and is much safer than taking it out on siblings and you of course.

i know didnt read properly before i answered sorry!!! I can certainly understand how he feels being the eldest..i was the eldest of 7. Bless him im glad you have made a breakthrough and hopefully it can now get better..it can be so hard getting to the bottom of things when your children will not talk about there problems..hopefully it can be resolved now..good luck to you and your son

Awww AnAngel - you sound a great mum and he is lucky to have you.

I hope things improve from here on in.

Good for you - AnAngel - I would really recommend you get him referred for help with the OCD/anxiety symptoms. it is a very frustrating problem to watch someone living with, but a referral to a Child Psychologist should help him.

The Best of Luck

back to square one! He was really good on monday, like a weight had been lifted off him. He helped me do stuff without being asked, i thanked him and told him it was really nice of him and we chatted about things etc.

Yesterday, he turned back into horrid child As in he had me slumped on the kitchen floor reduced to tears. He was told that he would not be attending football after school today as a result of his behaviour. Cue this morning, massive screaming fit and, for the first time ever, DH didn't back me up, and told him he could go to football. But still he was arsey and screaming. All the way to school i had a mouthful off him just because i asked him if he had got his sweatshirt and he hadn't!

I've just come home and sat here in tears now.

hippipotami, thank you but I don't think that is true lol.
Jamie, yes, i have lived with ocd all my life. Its probably even my fault he is like it. I've genetically mashed him up

I am new to this (this is my first post) so forgive me for not knowing at the abbreviations!

I really feel for you AnAngelWithin, I have an 11 yesr old son, but no other children for him to argue with and no partner to contradict me (I of course would prefer to have a partner and more children, both for me and for my son, but thats the way it is). Anway, I am explaining that because my ds is problem (so far!!). If I had seen your post earlier I would have said to do exactley what you did, and talk to him one to one. I think like SrStanislaus pointed out you have a very busy family life and that makes things more difficult for all of you.

I loved the way talking to your ds about helping you revealed how he feels when you say 'thanks, you needn't have' its crossed wires like that that seem like small things but can be really important.

I think as Jamieandthismagictorch mentioned also that it could be really useful to see a professional, I have worked with wpople with OCD, and you mentioned living with OCD, it is not a matter of saying 'dont do that it does make sense' I think help sooner the better for that.

As I mentioned before my ds is well behaved, but is very sensitive and worries about everything. Its easier for us as adults to rationalise and work out what is worth worrying about statistically etc etc, but children dont have that perspective. My ds drived me mad asking questions, often complex ones I'm not sure how to answer, but I think talking is the forward. Which you clearly do. Dont be so hard on yourself. I keep telling my ds there is no parenting handbook to refer to, and us parents are only humna and we cant go back and change the way we have done things we just have to keep moving forward awarre of how past decisions affected things for better or worse and keep doing our best. I try not to be too hard on him when he makes mistakes and use these examples of his mistakes as comparisons of my mistakes. I realised a while ago that I a have high expectations of him (dont we all?) and needed to be careful about how i communicate that with him.

I think you really ought not to be so hard on yourself when he his behaviour was not so good again the other day, he wont suddenly be good everyday, but talking to him about when he is good and what behaviour you consider to be unacceptable, and if he understands why and sgrees with you might help. It sounds like on top of having 4 children and being pregnant your eldest being problematic is more than anyone could deal with, even with a usually supportive husband... be proud of yourself for coping, but I would advise get some help. A good cry is definatley allowed. I will send you a hug.

Hi honi,

firstly have some big hugs poppet I know how you are feeling and I'm in a similar situation with my DS who has just turned 11. He has taken on the role of 3rd parent in our house (a position that we didn't give him) He's moody, argumentative, bossy and generally obnoxious!! He can also be very caring and funny so not all bad.

My son went for councelling but to be honest it made things worse as he thought he was special and it seemed to boost his ego. There was some good things that came out of it tho. They gave him techniques to deal with the rage that he was feeling, and also explained to him what was appropriate behaviour (which we had also explained but its funny how they will listen to a stranger over their parents!)

I know this sounds silly bit we've been watching super nanny and putting some of her ideas in to place. We have a list of things that are not acceptable and the consequences if they happen. I'm not very good at ignoring his arguing and just sticking to the point but when I can it does help. He is very very good at drawing me in to an argument and once i'm in i've lost!!! We also try to do lots of things together either all of us or 1 2 1 both my boys like to cook. so even the smallest and simplest of things can become a great experience.

But all that said he in himself is just a difficlut and complicated child and that won't change so we as a family have to recognise that and then try to work with what we have got rather than try to change it!

I hope this is of some help and sorry i've gone on so much

big hugs xxxx

Hi Angel --
Maybe I am in huge denial about something but my DS1 is a lot like yours, and I don't see him as hugely disturbed (not enough to warrant counselling, anyway). Selfish, Nasty to siblings, lying about small things (the fruit), lazy about chores or personal hygiene, over-emotional and irrational, etc. Bad tempered grumpy and self-centred in the extreme, basically.

To me a lot of it is hormones and figuring out how to grasp autonomy. The hand-washing/OCD stuff in your case -- I may be misinformed, but a lot of that has to do with not feeling in control of aspects of one's life, isn't it? Which could be stuff like fear of growing up or being forbidden to do something or having to tolerate siblings, etc. So the sufferer gets focused on stuff they can control.

It sounds great that you had that break-thru chat but I think you'll find that this is a long-haul slog before you, just keep the channels of communication open (your weekly chat idea is great). And if it were me I'd be talking to him about what little things (even very small things) that he can do to make himself happier; as adults we know that often when you sort the little things the bigger issues either become less scarey or even manage to sort themselves out.

Good luck (another long but hopefully vaguely helpful post!).

HI Angel

I've had OCD and trust me, I don't blame my mum!

Your poor DS tho - take him to see the doc. CBT can work wonders rather fast, and in any case the behaviour can fade with severity over time.