Appalling beahavior from my nearly 4yr old son

[vikt]

My son is a paragon of virtue at playgroup 2.5 days a week and loves it. At home he is a rude spoilt brat, hitting, biting, takes hours to get him dressed, he's rude to my neighbour, he just pushes and pushes at all boundaries. He sleeps 11 hrs a night, 6.30 - 5.30, so we are just exhausted and have had enough. Advice please before i give him up for adoption! Oh and i've tried everything for extreme tolerance to raging fury and all shades in between

have you tried time-outs, naughty step, no dessert, bed early and (dare i say it) smack on the bum

You have all my sympathy. I have four children altogether and two of them are like this. The other two are model children always polite and kind with a great attitude to life.

Sorry no help but plenty of sympathy.

I sympathise hugely as my 4 year old has recently turned in to a cheeky sod who shouts but then I have made a mess with my 8 and 6 year olds too.

Decide how you are going to react when he does x and stick to it. Consistency is the key ime. Shame I am too knackered to do it myself.

smack on bum just accelerates things - the smacking game when he goads one into it so he can smack back; naughty step - not that successful; bed any earlier we'd be up at 4am!!!!; doesn't get much dessert anyway, is occasional treat. Do try to be consistent but, well, you know how it is.... Do stickers work? Personally fancy a good thrashing every morning to start the day but I think that's forbidden these daze......

I have found stickers to really help - you wouldn't think they could hold that much power, but my now 5.5 year old DS really seemed to care.

We set up a chart with a variety of targets : get dressed without a fuss / no screaming & shouting at us / do as you're asked without arguing / play nicely with your sister...

He gets a sticker for each one, then a gold star if he has at least 6 out of 7. At the end of the week, if he has at least 5 gold stars, he can choose a treat or outing.

He loves the routine of going through the chart right before bed, to the extent that once when we forgot, he got up at 2am and came through to wake us to let us know!

Don't get me wrong, it's not a surefire solution and we often get periods where no stickers seem to get awarded all week. But that just proves that after all, kids are just like us. They have good times and bad.

OK buttercat, I've hummed and hahhed(?spelling) about stickers, my partner's not been keen, but your meesage has persuaded us both. Sticker shop here we come.....

We have a chart which dh made (obviously too much time on his hands ) It has a sun and a rain cloud and photo of ds. If he is naughty he goes on the rain cloud. If he is good he stays on the sun. This is something they have at pre-school so maybe thats why it is working at home.

If he is naughty we say no television or treats etc.

Oh no! Pressure! Haha. Just give it time, it may work, or it may not. It just seems to really matter a big deal to DS.

Does he get a really good run in the morning? If all else fails make him too knackered to act up. A trip to the park or a bike or scooter ride is a good way to burn off a bit of energy.

With the not getting dressed thing I still sometimes hustle DS (aged 5.5 yrs) out the door with his socks, shoes and coat in my hands. When he gets cold he'll put them on.

For bad behaviour DS gets 2 mins in his room. I don't do the Tanya Byron hold the handle thing because that's fun for him to test his strength against mine. What I do instead is if he comes out before I tell him he can then the 2 mins starts again from the beginning. No big explanation, just "you opened the door, so your 2 mins starts again". At first DS could make a 2 min time out last up to half an hour, but now he usually just does his time.

Also, try sending him to the loo. DS is the devil when he's holding on to a wee or a poo.

And from an adoptive parent at considering giving a child up for adoption as a solution for bad behaviour.

DS nearly four is quite well behaved but what does work is taking a toy away when he does something naughty. he gets a warning and if he does it again then a toy goes away until the next day.

Also i have taken him to the supermarket half dressed because he has pissed about so much and wouldn't get dressed. He's only done that once though as I can just ssay now if you don't get dressed you will go out like that (even if it is just his pants)

Is he feeling that he'd like a bit of control over his life? Some of these troubles seem to be power battles. If he won't get dressed let him go to nursery in his pyjamas. This isn't to hurt him more to show show him why we have to get dressed, why we have to do it in certain time frames. Act like it doesn't matter and take his nursery clothes with you. He may not let things get that far because he likes nursery and behaves well.

If you don't like this idea how about using a timer, telling him he has until the sand runs out (so he can see time passing) to get dressed and if he needs help to ask for it, leave him be. Once the timer runs out then get ready to leave the house.

With my ds 2 (2) if he doesn't get his shoes/coat ect on when I need him too I say -okay I'll carry on with ds 3 and when you're ready come over though once I get my shoes on we're leaving...He has always come over and asked for his shoes to be put on.

We found the naughty step didn't work with ds 1 (now 5.10) as he became sarcastic 'sorry dog, sorry mummy, can I go now?' and with ds 2 we know it would become a battle over keeping him on the step for the alloted time and therfore, get away from what he did to be put on the step. I could imagine us saying 'now do you know why I put you on the naughty step?' and him thinking 'Nope, but it's been a hell of a lot of fun winding you up...'

I try to get ds 2 to help me a lot. When we're in the supermarket and he's not wanting to be in the trolley I now take a small toy shopping basket and ask him to get items for me, he LOVES it and help to put his 'shopping' onto the conveyer belt. I am going to make him a shopping bag to put it in too.

Talk about how his action make others feel, ds 2 doesn't like to upset people but is begining to see that his action are upsetting people though he does still bit his brother (hard )

Make sure you get out with him everyday, boys are like puppies it has been said many times on here and I have 3 puppies boys and this is so true!

There's another thread about a similar DS who's four. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/behaviour_development/900020-Whingy-and-hard-to-please-4yr-old
As I posted there, it seems really common in boys that age. Not that that helps much when they're yours..

I also have a nearly 4yo, normally quite good but has his moments too...

I was never a big fan of reward charts but we printed one from the supernanny website where he goes up a star for being good, down for being naughty. When he gets to no.10 he can choose a treat or outing. We got him excited about it by getting him to colour it in and cut out a star to use to mark his place. It definitely improved his behaviour especially at the start.
good luck...

Bran, I do jest! not really giving him away!! He mine all mine - I feel bad for I'm the 40+ mother res[ponsible for spoiling my little darling unexpected gift from the gods.... Posted at wits end after weekend from hell. don't start me on wee - i seriously screwed up the potty-training. I'm going to give stickers a go, suspect he'll get into them, esp if there's a treat involved.

Love it ! Pants to playgroup. Oh yes! The very thought cheers me up no end!

Stickers are a thing of wonder! My DS1 (now 4.5) reallt reacted well to the sticker chart. I drew one with a jungle scene and he filled it with monkey and parrot stickers, and we had a street scene with vehicle stickers too. I would say things like "If you get dressed nicely you can have a sticker". We didn't count the stickers but gave him a small treat if he'd had a good day/week.
I use stickers with my class and even at 6 and 7yo, they will still do anything for a sticker!!

I know it was a joke, and that you probably would never think of saying it out loud but some people do and little adoptees have big ears and tend take things literally.

Can I just add a different pov re stickers. Stickers solve problems in the short term and may have appeared to have fixed the 'problem' but what you actually teach children is that you get something for good behaviour when if reality you don't, it's just an expectation.

Once the reward stops, invariably the good behaviour does too as unless you get a sticker for being good, what's the point. A friend's child actually said as much when her mum asked her why she wasn't doing the alloted job as she said 'well, the chart's full'

Children can stop spontaneous behaviour because unless they get 'seen' being good then there's really no point. Being good has to come from within, from a moralistic pov rather than for a possible sticker reward.

My son started school and wasn't really into stickers but soon started asking 'what do I get?' when I asked him to do things. This is not a reaction I really wanted to encourage. Some parents even paid (and still do) their children for every sticker which was detracting from what the child had done to deserve the sticker. They celebrated the sticker/financial reward and the children wanted to earn more stickers not to demonstrate good behaviour, not to be a better person (long term goal but it's a slow burner with young children) but to accumulate money and stickers. Stickers can change behaviour, that I don't dispute but the longevity is disputable as is lesson learned. Do they change for money/stickers or because that's the right thing to do?

Also, as reward charts aren't used in the adult world when should they stop for real lfe to kick in? Why not use a behaviour managment tool that is efective now and continues through to when your child is older?

I am a mother to 5.10, 2.2, and 6 month boys and a teacher who has worked with challenging and difficult children.

My 5 year old has five rules that he has to stick to e.g eat your tea without fake vomiting and crying. You may need less rules. Things that are on the have to be done or a toy is taken away. If he keeps the rule it's given back. Other naughty things are overlooked so we can tackle the big problems. He is also sent to his room. Read Raising Boys by Steve Biddulph. It makes alot of sense.

Sorry, I forgot to write as soon as he does the thing you want give praise and some time. I feel I sound like an idiot with you are a kind brother or that has made me really proud Etc. I could get the cheesy parent award.

muppetgirl, I think the sticker thing's interesting too and agree that it can turn into doing nothing if there's no reward, but it can get you over some bumps too. We've used it for things where DS finds something genuinely hard - eg: wiping his own bottom. He was anxt ridden about it for some reason, so we did a deal with him - one sticker for every time he did it himself - then a trip to his favourite park when the chart was full. Once he'd completed the chart he knew he didn't continue to get the stickers - he also knew that there was no point in trying to say he couldn't wipe his own bottom so he didn't keep on asking for more things. In other words, it doesn't have to always lead to a 'what do I get' mindset.

I had a lovely day with DS. Got dressed, went to playgroup, picked him up, we went round town doing a bit of food shopping, came home. He built a den out of the sofa, playing some game, I did washing up, general tidying. A friend was coming round with her DD, who is just 5 days younger than DS. When they arrived he switched to rude boy. He got tickled, rolled around. He threw someting at my friend, hit her DS. We carried on with our conversation. He spat at ,y friend. I lost the plot somewhat - having a broken wrist makes it hard to pick him up and throw him into his room. Then we carried on conversation. He picked up low stool with horrible legs and I just stopped him throwing it at me. I did drag him down the stairs to his room..... The whole situation is vile and I don't know waht to do. It's like he's some jealous lover who wants me all to himself. He will not play on his own, will not stay in a room on his own, and has always been like that. He is rarely badly behaved elsewhere, at my friend's house for example, he and her DD will play happily for hours, although things can get trcky - she very bossy and he gets wound up by her. HELP!

So sorry your day ended this way but you did have some lovely time with him in the morning.

Can you take a step back and not have friends to play for a while? Can you meet people at the park or at softplay? Mutual ground and nothing to throw at you or friend?

Are you able to discuss his behaviour with him, how it made our friend's child feel, how he is upsetting you when he hurts you. Tell him that your friend's child might not want to play with him or have him to her house which would be a shame as you can see he enjoys playing with them. I would leave it till tomorrow as it's never great to 'discuss' whilst it's the same day. (Ds 2 drives me to the brink and back on a regular basis so I try to chat with him once I've calmed down.

Can you chat with your friend in the evening so you aren't isolating yourself but you're not accepting ds's behaviour. You might want to mention/caht with your friend that you know ds is tough but you are addressing things and would love her 'help'. You don't want to lose friends over this so talking openly with your friends about ds's behaviour might help.

He will get better, have you chatted to the nursery, I know he's great there but they may have some other suggestions.

Must be really tough for you with your wrists, did he do this before you broke them? Is he taking advantage?

Oh muppetgirl, thanks for that. Yes, it's home-based where he's worst, and I don't know why. And then just the fact that he'ssooooo awful makes me feel quite ashamed! I am going to try the stickers as a basis for better behavior, and also the complete ignoring thing, turning one's back, and then being very present for good behavior. But the level of violence frightens me! And it's no good removing a toy - we chucked the entire brio plus trains in the bin the other day and he didn't bat an eyelid (we took them out later and put themaway). Very intransigent. I can be quite volatile, but nothing like this. And my partner is stunned - has 2 older boys who were pliable angels generally. I wanted a son who could look after himself, stand up and be himself, never dreamt it would be .like this.

Ah, the removing a toy...
I had locked horns with ds 1 when he was smaller and took toy after toy away to which he didn't bat an eyelid. He even said 'you've left my books...' in a sarcastic way. When I said I could find someone to give them too he just said 'yep, I think Thomas would like them.' (his friend) I was and wanted him to be upset, but he wasn't. Didn't give a fig. Still the same now. I only take toys away if they are being used to hurt and they do get fair warning.

Maybe ask him who he'd love to invite to tea from nursery. Talk with him about his behaviour before, say to him that he can't behave the way he does or his friend will have to leave early and that would be a shame. Have the friend over for 1hr, do you have a garden -can you chuck them outside as larger space you could be on the edge and not your ds's focus. Chat with him afterwards -assuming all went well -tell him you saw he was having a good time, you could see him smiling/laughing and his friend was too, shall we invite them again, maybe for longer/tea?

Really tough for you...