Neighbours leave 3 yr old DS to cry in the night, any advice?

[Ithaca]

Teraced houses, we hear neighbours' 3 year old DS crying - and by crying I mean screaming out mummy/daddy/mummy i just want you to talk to me/i just want my milk, running around the room bashing into things. This happens pretty much every night and he has been left crying in the night for well over a year, happens about 2/3a.m. and wakes us up, several times a week at bedtime too. Very occasionally we hear neighbours go in and tell him to be quiet but that makes no difference.

We have a 9 month old who wakes up a few times in the night, not crying unless she has a blocked a nose, but DP usually sleeps in the spare room anyway - room next to neighbours' DS - in order to get sleep as he goes to work /gets up early with our baby, but gets woken up by next door, as do I when I've slept in there because ill.

From passing conversations, neighbours know we can hear it, their attitude has been "oh that's just DS" or say how DS has been difficult this past few months. They have another baby a couple of months old now too.

The thing is, not only is the extra lack of sleep making us increasingly annoyed, having our own baby has made us even more upset to hear this poor little boy crying like this so much and just being left. He cries several times during the day too, what I guess you would call terrible twos type stuff though I don't know about that.

I have offered to have him round here to play any time, since they had second child, to give them a break, so far not taken up on that. DP and I have talked it over a lot and can't think of anything we could say that would make them change their tactics, even though has been going on so long it obviously not worked. So is the best we can do just say "the noise is disturbing us please can you try to keep it down"? Any advice on this would be great.

I'm sure you mean well in being concerned but it is likely to go badly if you express concerns about how they parent their DS.
A toddler/preschooler crying is a bit different to a baby. When DD was 9mo I never left her to cry as she was only a tiny baby who needed me to do everything for her. Now that she's 2.7 things are a bit different. She is now certainly capable of crying to get her own way and being a bit manipulative and I do leave her to it sometimes if I'm sure she isn't ill or frightened or anything.
The only thing you can really complain about is that the noise disturbs you but they may be trying as best they can to deal with an intractable problem.
If I were you I would soundproof my own side of the wall and repeat your kind offer of taking him out to give them a break.

If you really think that your neighbour's child is being neglected, then clearly you should take the appropriate action. On the other hand, that could backfire spectacularly if your neighbours are simply doing their best with normal toddler behaviour.

I know you said the little boy screams most nights but how long does the screaming carry on?

Unless the screaming is going on for an hour/hours at a time, I think I second Mamadoc: I know I don't deal with my toddler crying at bedtime/in the middle of the night in the same way I did when she was a baby. Pretty much every night, my DD (currently doing the "terrible twos") invents reasons not to go to bed/to get up in the early hours. Sometimes I am absolutely sure that she's just making it up - and then I do have to leave her to settle herself. And, yes, she does shout and scream at me when I walk away - but she's having a tantrum because I've disobeyed her and not because she's ill, hungry, thirsty, cold, hurt, scared or neglected. However, DD usually settles within, say, five to ten minutes - once she realises that she doesn't have an audience any longer! - which is why I wondered whether your neighbour's little boy was being left for longer than that.

As for asking your neighbours to keep the noise down - believe me, I would love DD to keep the noise down when she's having a tantrum! I'm afraid that no amount of requests from my neighbours would persuade her to do so!

It's threads like this that make me really worry what my neighbours think of my parenting. They hear DD screaming and crying and yelling, and must think we're treating her terribly when in fact we're doing everything in our power to placate her. And as for asking them to keep the noise down, sorry, physically near impossible, and much harder to do if you are worrying about what the neighbours are thinking.

I agree with the others- a toddler is very different to a 9 month old. Only get involved if you believe you are witnessing other clear signs of neglect. Otherwise you're going to have to chalk it up to having a terraced home- but you're likely to be getting your own back noise-wise in a year or two anyway!

When my ds1 was a baby I used to be horrified to hear how my neighbour shouted at her then four year old. Only to discover when my PFB was 4 that sometimes the raised voice was necessary.
Chances are the 3 year old's nose has been put out of joint by the arrival of the new baby and he is acting up at night because hey, if the baby can get away with it, why shouldn't he?
3 year olds don't need night feeds or drinks and if they wake at night and demand attention, they need to be treated more firmly than a baby and not pandered to, otherwise they will push the boundaries out even more.
I think the most unfortunate thing is that your neighbours live in a terraced house. When our ds3 does this it is exhausting and irritating for us but at least our neighours can't hear him!

If you like them, you could try and make friends with them...then get into mutual discussions about you each can keep noise down.

These issues are easier if you have a good relationship with them to start with hopefully.

Otherwise, you could just tell them that the noise is a problem for all the reasons that you outlined. They might change how they deal with their child at night.

If your children then become noisy, they may have expectations of you.

My DS1 spent over a year, from the age of 3yrs, waking up screaming in the middle of the night for well over and hour because he had night terrors. Now I always used to comfort him but it made not the slightest bit of difference and I would be surprised if he had any idea I was there.

A lot of sleep experts advise not to comfort them.

I would recommend making friends with them but please try and keep an open mind. They may well be exhausted and trying their best.

Poor little boy - I don't think that a 3 yr old should be left every night for a year in such distress (and my 3 yr old ds has only just started sleeping though). He clearly isn't doing it for attention if he isn't getting any. I don't know what you can do though.

Thanks all. I do realise that a 3 yr old crying is very different from a 9 month old, but it's not my lack of personal experience that makes me feel sorry for the boy. A couple of posts mention how sometimes crying/raised voices are necessary, fair enough, but this is not sometimes, this is 20-30 mins of crying and screaming "mummy"/"daddy" and has been going on most nights for well over a year (meaning he was around 18 months when it started) that is very stressful for any child to go through.

I'm never going to understand why it's okay to leave children to cry like that when you would not do that to an adult. Especially when after a year+ of it you might realise that the child isn't learning to behave any differently from this treatment.

I know I can't say anything about their parenting, nor would I. They mentioned once that past 5 months have been bad as he has been in a proper bed and he wants one of them to stay there with him while he goes to sleep and they choose not to, I personally would not shut the door and not come back as that's not my style and I think it's better in the long run.

I have made approaches to have more of a relationship, from what you're all saying I will just keep trying with that and I don't think it hurts to let them know politely that the noise disturbs us. Just because we chose to live in a terrace doesn't mean it's okay for us to be woken up nearly every night.

"20-30 mins of crying and screaming "mummy"/"daddy""...

Oh my goodness, that isn't very long - I thought you meant an hour of crying at a time.

I suggest your DH sleeps downstairs in the living room if he keeps getting woken up.

Sorry but I agree with Orissiah it's not long, and the child is a toddler, and they are tricky little blighters (I have one).

You said that sometimes when he does it they go in but it makes no difference - maybe that's why they don't go in? Could be night terrors - DD sometimes yells and crys and you go in and she is asleep and unrousable which is really odd but there you go. She never remembers it in the morning.

FGS OP, do you think these neighbours want their ds to wake in the night and cry?
They are probably at their wits' end and have tried everything they can think of, but you feel able to judge them because clearly you know much better than they do how to parent their child

Shall I explain one likely reason why they may let him cry for as long as they do? Because maybe they have found that if they go in immediately, he will do it far more often - not just once in a night, but three or four times.
Good luck when yours is a toddler....

sorry I lost it there OP . But I do think you are likely to see this differently in a few years (unless, of course, you have a dream toddler like one of mine).

I agree, a toddler crying for 20 minutes every night is quite normal in my book. DS1 did this for several months when he was 2.5 at bedtime. It was purely an attention thing and once we'd made sure he wasn't hurt or ill then we left him to it. He eventually got the message but it did take months.

I guess it comes down to whether or not you agree with leaving a child to cry it out which clearly your neighbours think is acceptable. I would approach the matter on a purely 'noise' issue and explain that it's waking you up. On that level I think you're right to say something.

You don't know that they have left him to cry, one of the parents may be in the room, he may be having night terrors.

Sounds pretty normal to me.

20-30 mins. not too long at all.

I used to wonder about rubbish sleeper children because my first two were wonderful sleepers.

Now I have a 14-month-old son who would happily stay up from 1AM if permitted.

He also screams at bedtime for about 10 minutes.

We're tried everything. I have terrible PND characterised by anxiety and there's nothing worse than hearing him cry at all.

But I was literally fainting from fractured sleep and have two older children who need care adn attention, too.

So the past couple of nights he's cried in the night for about 15 mins. at a time.

If you seriously think your neighbours are neglecting or abusing their child, do something about it. But from the sounds of it, they are dealing with a child who plays up at bedtime in their own way and you'd do well to get some earplugs and mind your own.

You're baby is only 9 months old. With all due respect, you haven't got a clue how demanding toddlers can be.

I have a feeling that in a couple of years time, when your toddler has spent a good hour tantrumming on the floor and screaming blue murder at you, you will be much much more tolerant of your neighbours!

It's not that a toddler crying for 30 mins isn't sometimes in pain/real distress, but it's hard to know the difference if you don't know the child. DD has a cry which sounds awful but she can switch it on and off like a tap. She also has a real cry. The difference between them is quite subtle and I doubt anyone except dh and I can tell which is which.

I think 20 mins is a very long time for a three year old to cry, but maybe I have a very good 3 year old (which would be news to me!).
Someone mentioned that maybe they have found that by going in to him it makes it worse, but he has been doing it for over a year, so he hasn't 'learnt' that no crying for so long will do any good.
As a neighbour (especially in pre-children days) I would have been furious about the noise, but as a parent now I would be concerned (but furious too, to be honest).

You have a very good 3-year-old.

A year ago, I might have felt like you.

I don't now!

furious?

You don't know that he's left to cry. Ds 15mo has currently been crying for the past 30mins with his dad in the room trying to cuddle him to sleep.

Last night he cried for 90mins while dh and I took it in turns to try and get him to sleep.

And we co sleep. Doesn't stop him from waking up and crying for an hour some nights.

Grief, it's stressful enough for the neighbours to be dealing with this every night at 3am, let alone worrying about the neighbours.
Our neighbours get up at 5am, but they don't give a toss about us, when they put their TV on really loud and bang their doors....every single morning!
They were away at Xmas and it was heaven.

My dd1 used to be a bit like this. Well probably worse, actually. But not as often. She would screech and scream and throw things around the room, for hours on end. Nothing would stop her.

FWIW I was actually there with her, but it made no difference. Any attempt to calm her, would just make her worse. All I could do is wait it out and then comfort her. I know my neighbours thought she was alone and being neglected, because they started gossiping about me in their local, not realising that my sister worked there. I was not impressed. things were awakard between us for months afterwards.

You have no idea whether they are leaving him or not. Or why he is crying/if them being there would make a difference. Just because you cannot hear them, does not mean they are not sat waiting for him to calm down.

For the sake of the peace and good relations, I'd stay well out of it. Some kids sleep well, some don't. It doesn't mean that they are being neglected.

Yes, honestly, OP, what you are describing is not in itself something to worry about -- not at all.

Many, many children around that age do this kind of thing. It is frequently the case that everything has been tried, and that going in to see them and try to settle them does not help, because what they actually are asking for is for the parents to get up and play with them at 3AM and they won't calm down for anything less ... but after 20 or 30 mins of being ignored they get the message and sleep again. I'm not saying that every toddler does this by any means but it is, unfortunately, very common.

Even if he is saying heartrending things like "I just want you to talk to me" etc, it's unlikely that with a child of this age, a quick soothing word and cuddle would actually satisfy him -- if that worked I am certain your neighbours would do it every time, instead of lying miserably listening to their DS scream the place down.

I can tell you, it is truly horrid having to stand firm in the face of your LO doing this night after night -- and if you are thinking that it's some sort of drastic parenting approach comparable to leaving a young baby to cry, let me assure you, it isn't.

Can you tell we have just started having to deal with this ourselves? DS is 2.4 and having been a fabulous, happy little sleeper for ages, has for no apparent reason begun a phase of 3AM wakings with piteous sobs of "Where's my mummy gone? Mummy, come back ... come back ...." It is absolutely dreadful but the more we respond to it, the worse it gets as we've learned through trial and error -- so now we do just leave him sometimes. But we are lying awake in our room worrying the ENTIRE time, and if my neighbours came to me all cats-bum-mouth by stealth with a clear belief that we were Not Coping based only on night noise, I would be horrified and a bit annoyed tbh. (We do periodically apologise to them for the noise though ... we are in flats and they are a childless young couple so I know we aren't your neighbours!)

This has taken me about 8 years to type so I expect I will have missed lots of recent posts since I started - oh well

If I was 'furious' I'd get soundproofing installed. Or move. It's not worth the raised blood pressure.