My 12 yr old just told me and his Dad to F@ck off :O(

[HeinzSight]

He has been diagnosed as being on the ASD, he has a social communication disorder. He presents a v capable, intelligent boy but has these awful outbursts and tantrums when things don't go exactly his way.

Dh and I are frankly exhausted by it all . We worry about how it affects the two smallest children, 2 and 3 month old baby. My 10 yr old has suffered no end because of his older brother; we don't socialise because of his behaviour, we haven't done half the things we'd like to have done in terms of weekend activities, most family holidays have frankly been awful because of his 'spoilt brat' type behaviour.

I know he has a condition, i know i know i know, but I;m just so worn out, worn down and sad right now,

Can anyone give me any words of encouragement or strength?

He's never told us to fuck off before

I told him to go up to his room after being made to sit on our sofa for 5 mins and he said in an aggressive voice 'FINALLY' and stomped up the stairs. I told him we didn't want to be around him when he's behaving like this and he shouted 'i don't care what you think'

I know he doesn't mean it, it's so hard as a parent being spoken to like this.

maybe I should be on the sn board?

Thank you so much Pixie, your message has helped no end, In feel like crying!

We're currently seeing a psychologist who deals with this condition, he's been explaining what we can expect and the next step is to guide us as to how we handle it.

I took his beloved Ipod away, so all he has up there are books.

hi heinzsight i know how you are feeling i have a 12yr old who is waiting for an assessment he has social problems,he can be aggressive towards his 10yr old sister too.he also is pushing his luck saying bloody,crap alot.he has lots of screaming and shouting when things dont go his way.he is currently not at school as causes him anxiety how does your son get on at school,you are not alone we dont socialise much either.we are seeing camhs i break now frequently when hes screaming he doesnt want to live or if he hadnt been born he wouldnt be in that body his words not mine.i leave my son indoors on his own!!!!

sorry meant to say i break down frequently

Pixie, you hit the nail on the head about arguments not being fresh, I'm so guilty of allowing all the past conflicts to compound a current one. It's so hard to detatch from the past.

bigdonna, your DS sounds v similar to mine. Mine can also be aggressive towards his brother (10), they mostly have an awful relationship and nothing I do seems to help it. It is so very very hard isn't it.

yep when i read your post i thought you were
talking about my ds how very similar they are, today so far has been good they have been playing tennis together on the wii.sorry no advice i have looked after kids for 27yrs and am in same boat because every day is different good luck

Had another explosion from him today. I have had enough of him either failing to do tasks through laziness or forgetfulness, so I have implemented a 'do it straight away rule'

He keeps failing to bring his washing down during the week, so I set a rule that if it's left til the weekend, I don't do it, he has to do it all himself (he's nearly 13 so quite capable), the inevitable happened so after the 3rd load today, I removed the washing and left it in a pile in the hallway. I called him down and told him to put it on hangers to dry. Several hours later he came down from watching tv and asked when dinner was ready, I asked him if he'd done his washing, he didn't answer, when I started to go upstairs he said, i've not done it, i've not done it. I told him I was really cross about this and he was going to be banned from any tv this week. The reason for the tough punishment is because of a succession of things he's done this weekend. He then said, I'm not listening to anything you say, so I sent him to bed with no dinner

I'm so worn out I almost feel like I'm switched off emotionally toward him at the moment, horrid.

I feel for you. Don't know if this helps - but I want to say my story. I am one of the kids who grew up with a troubled sibling. My older brother suffers with Paranoid Schizophrenia - he was absolutely fine till he was 16 and then whoosh! - lost him to this tragic illness in the space of a few years.

He was very hard to live with. I am 3 years younger - so was 13 and my little brother was only 6. We grew up with him ranting and raving, aggressive and often in a state of delusion. My parents were so strained - my broken hearted/exhausted mum was worried about the effects on us. It took a long time for him to become 'stable' and many many sections into the mental health wards. He was my mums first baby - It still breaks my heart to think how awful it was for her. Not easy for me to wander around the mental health unit visiting my brother at 15 - when all my friends were worrying about their boyfriends and what they were wearing. Very unfair - heartbreaking.

However, here's the rub - my older brother is now in his 40's. He lives in a therapeutic community locally, which assists him in living independently. I see him once a week (at least) he comes over for some supper and we get a video. I love my brother and am so proud of him. It is so hard for him to manage his own illness and very exhausting for him.

In terms of us siblings growing up with such strife in the family unit - well, I went to uni, travelled the world, have a great career - have the most amazing DH, children. I have got for myself a very loving home. I totally appreciate that life utterly unfair, unpredictable and at times, brutal.

My younger brother - who experienced seeing my brother do the most traumatizing things - is the greatest person I know! Everybody adores him - he is open minded - gentle - incredibly emotionally intelligent. He has forged amazing friendships - it was so hard for him when he was little having friends back etc etc.

When my older brother was in his mid 20's - my mum retrained - went to uni (having left school at 15). She is very happy now.

I'm trying to give you some hope - as a family who were nuked by a incredibly traumatic experience. Ill prepared to deal with it. Mangled by the rubbish NHS treatment of mental health, terrible taboos in society that seem to report that my gentle big brother is some sort of 'murderer' - We have done so well as a family. It has taken a long time - but I think we are all living very happy lives -

The greatest lessons I have learnt about life - were because of my brother. Kindnesss, empathy and I absolutely do not get caught up in petty concerns.

Of course I wish my brother was not ill - but that's the card life dealt us. You simply don't know what's around the corner.

Thank you daytoday for honest and amazing post. You have helped me so much, as I do constantly worry about the effect on the other children.xx

heinz - my 12 year old has been telling us to fuck off since he was 5 ... he has tourette's and although the swearing isn't actually a tic (i.e. he has some control over it) it comes and goes in phases and is definitely part of the general disinhibition he has

if it makes you feel any better, neither of the younger two (9 and 7) have ever sworn, which is amazing since they've grown up hearing their brother's language

what I try to do (with varying degrees of success) is to try to take the emotional heat out of a situation - i.e. if he's ranting and raving and stamping his feet it doesn't help if I then start shouting, so I consciously make myself act really really calm

also, don't fall into the trap of having to have the last word - if he's muttering something offensive as he goes off to do whatever it is he's asked you to do, let it wash over you - it's just verbal diarrhoea, it doesn't mean anything. If he's doing what you asked him to, even if there's a lot of humphing and attitude just very sweetly say thank you - it helps him feel like he's saved face ...

is your ds constantly bad-tempered or are there moments when he's happy and affectionate? ds1 is a real jekyll and hyde character - when he's lovely, he's absolutely delightful, and when something doesn't go his way, he's frustrated or anxious he's just hellish. I do try to focus on the good times as it helps me not get quite so depressed about the bad and helps stop our relationship spiralling into a constantly negative cycle

What a great post daytoday.

Jekyll and Hyde is a VERY good way of describing him. There are times when he can be so lovely and considerate but then totally out of the blue he changes. It's normally due to competition with his younger brother. He's always brilliant with the girls because they're that much younger than him therefore don't pose any 'threat'.

Question, HOW do you cope with blatant and constant lying?

I caught him with his finger in the Nutella jar the other day, which initself isn't a big deal, but I told him not to do it because it's unhygienic. DH heard him quickly thrust the jar in teh cupboard this morning and asked told him off for putting his finger in it again (there was no knife or anything in front to suggest he'd been using one instead), he completely denied having anything to do with the jar! I've jsut looked in it and there's saliva in teh bottom of it

Yesterday he was told as part of his chores (because he'd been complaining about the cold when helping his Dad in teh garden, said Dad has a paralysed arm) he must clean the upstairs bathrooms, he knows how to clean them properly. I went to bed last night and noticed that all he'd done is put bleach down teh toilets, this, despite me asking him yesterday if he'd done them properly, that was the condition before he was to watch tv.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH

I just know that the minute he walks through the door after school I'm going to tell him off for all these things. Bad idea?

I feel like if I don't call him up for it, in his head, he's got away with everything adn will continue the laziness and lying.

FED UP FED UP FED UP

aNOTHER example this weekend, he's not allowed it eat upstairs because he leaves rubbish everywhere. Also, if he uses the loft to watch tv in, he must keep it tidy otherwise he gets 'banned' for a period.

I looked in there on Friday and it was a tip, cheese string wrappers everywhere, dvds, games, his dirty washing etc.

SO he was told off and made to clean it up, aswell as picking the clean washing on hangers up off his floor that I'd given him the day before to hang up.

Yesterday, I went upstairs to call him down and heard wrappers rustling. He appeared at the stairs chewing, I asked him what wrappers I'd heard and he said 'none', I asked him to empty his pockets and out came all these wrappers, hula hoops packet, cheese string and on the stairs I found a cake bar wrapper. I asked him where he'd eaten them, he said in teh kitchen, so I asked why he hadn't binned them in the kitchen and instead put them in his pocket, again 'i don't know', I then asked him what he was chewing, he said 'a nail'

I feel so incredibly negative towards him just now and I need to change my thinking again otherwise it's just going to spiral downwards. BUT HOW DO I DO IT?

DS1 came home from school and apologised. I told him I'd talk to him when his Dad got home, which wasn't going to be long.

We sat down and I went through everything that had happened this weekend. I asked him to tell me whether he agreed with what I was saying happened and to say if he didn't think anything was right. He agreed with everything.

I then explained that we were between us going to come up with a list of rule breaks and sanctions so that it was clear to him what the consequences would be.

I explained that his Dad and I are in charge whether he likes it or not. I asked why he had such a problem with that because I could see him squirming when I said it. He said he likes to be in charge. So I said nowhere on this planet is there a 12 yr old in charge of their parents. I also explained that there are rules wherever he goes and it will always be like that even when he's an adult.

Basically, because there has been one thing after another after another, he has ended up having his ipod taken away, his xbox time and tv time for one week. He started to get cross and say that left him with nothing to do. I asked him if he thought it was me or his Dad's fault, he refused to answer.

We also warned him that the Christmas present he has been saving towards is at risk because he's relying on us doubling whatever money he saves. We will still be giving him Christmas money as a present regardless of his behaviour, it's just the doubling up of pocket money he might lose.

He then started raising his voice saying it was unfair, he hadn't done anything and NOBODY ELSE'S PARENTS ARE AS STRICT AS YOU etc etc etc.

We tried explaining that if he abides by teh rules we'll go easier on him etc etc. He just exploded and said he didn't care etc and stormed off upstairs.

I feel so depressed about it all right now.

I'm sorry to hear you're having such a bad time.

My 12 yr old DS who has AS has told me to 'fuck off' more times than I've had hot dinners!

I felt shamefaced when I heard about your DS's chores, I'd never be able to get mine to do things like that, tidying his room is as much as I can manage.

Do your other children know about his dx? You'll probably find they tolerate that his behaviour is 'different'.

It sounds to me as if you are doing all the right things, explaining where he has gone wrong and what the consequences of his actions will be.

If your DS is anything like mine, he'll have a hard time accepting that his behaviour is expected to be 'policed' by parents or teachers and he has just as much authority as you have!

Good luck

Heinzsight you have handled this so well you sound so calm and measured when you've described how you're trying to manage him - well done! I just tend to shout then cry later

I'm reading this and feeling a bit stunned really. My dd1 is 11.5 and much of what you've posted sounds very familiar. We also have the tantrums, secret eating and hiding wrappers, forgetfulness, and that's just this weeklend! As for the lying, well there are days where I feel she's not capable of telling the truth we've had stealing too

In our case things are much worse when she's tired or hungry. Also I know hormones are hitting us big time which isn't helping.

FWIW I think you're taking the right approach to have firm rules about the presents and money. He needs to know where he stands with you and having rules like that
helps.

Good luck

My DS does the secret eating too, I always thought he was just a greedy little so and so, is it a recognised ASD trait at all?

I'm afraid he came down and I did end up shouting at him

This thread is giving me great stength and comfort knowing I'm not the only one.

Can we keep holding virtual hands?

I'd like that

I meant to say above, the reason I'm a bit stunned is that dd1 doesn't have a diagnosis of anything, other than stroppyitis, diagnosed by me! She is also v capable and intelligent when at school or other family. It just seems to be at home that she behaves like a monster

She's currently in her room as I won't let her on the pc, she's on a 24 hour ban after hurting dd2 (9) yesterday in a arguement over who's turn it was to chose the program on the iplayer - sigh.

I think the hardest thing is letting the hurt and anger go and not letting it fester into one huge long argument. I was so angry with her when she left for school this morning (arguement over homework not done and diary not signed as per every monday morning). It's so difficult not to just start where yoyu left off when you see them again.

Anyway [squeezes hand] I've got to go and cook something before she starts eating her younger siblings....

My DD aged 10 (who has no conditions of any kind) lies about eating in her bedroom (but forgets to hide the wrappers) and insists that we are the strictest parents on the face of this earth (we are not).

I think you handled it really well when you sat down and talked to him about it. Well done you.

I'm sorry you and your ds are having such a hard time.
I was listening to my ds1 (nearly 8 and as) arguing with his 4yrold brother today and I do worry about if it makes ds2 a more angry boy than he would be-my dd doesn't seem to take it the same way and doesn't get into arguments with him. It is all about competition too with the boys.
We have had our share of crap holiday experiences too- he was shouting at me in the shower at the pool on Sunday and I saw this man's look of horror-cringe!

I talk with my ds's pyschologist and it is clear that I and my ds both get caught in negative cycles. Things that have made it easier are making space to do positive things even in the midst of ongoing stress.

Even if it's just little stuff like looking through his photo albums with him-I need to have positive experiences with him every day -not just for his benefit. I appreciate that this must get harder as they get older.

My ds1 attends Saturday football at a really inclusive club which is a break for us and puts him with peers in a safe place. I intend to sens him to the as teenagers Saturday club when he's of age.

I do think it's fantastic that all your dc have to do chores, however I can still vividly remember the resentment I felt as a teen being made to do jobs- so I can see both sides. I know my ds finds it hard to focus and is forgetful - and that is his condition as his mind is all over the place with anxiety/obsessive thoughts. Perhaps instead of the ongoing stuff you could focus on one job at a time?

My very house proud mum made a decision that my room was my own and she doidn't come in to clean-it was a pit , but I didn't care and she relaxed. They also banned us from the front room so that didn't stress her.

I did a lot of lying about stealing food/doing jobs and so on and I am now a very very honest adult and very respectable-please don't worry too much about that.I also made a mess where ever I was and my house is pristine now-I don't think my dad's ranting changed me-more growing up really.

If it's any consolation my very good friend's nt 8 yrold told them to fuck off recently- and she is a very good parent-she was devastated.

I would look through the sn archives- your ds's behaviour is very typical and you're not alone. You're having a hard time and so is he.
I have rambled but I hope things look up.
Do you ever have the chance for a break?