Daughter age 2.10 terrified of pooing, six months on- Please help

[pinkcloud]

Hello, I am new to Mumsnet looking for help with potty training. My daughter is fine with weeing on toilet or potty (started potty training six months ago) but she is totally terrified of pooing, even now in a nappy. She is holding poo in and getting very sore and just does little poes all day in nappies. We can easily get through 6-8 nappies a day. She gets very upset and she often has huge tantrums when we have to change her nappy. We have tried lots of things to try and help her to stop being scared, e.g. potty training books, treats, ignoring the issue, praise etc. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Pinkcloud: I am a little confused by your post. You say you've been potty training for six months but your daughter is wearing several nappies during the day?

Perhaps she herself is confused by what's going on?

TBH - if you have already started the potty training, then I think you should just get rid of the nappies all together during the day and watch her like a hawk for signs that she needs a poo.

Still use nappies at night-time, but make it absolutely clear that the pooing in nappies during the day is finished. That way she will get a clear message of what is expected. And try and keep calm if she poos on the floor - just clear it up and encourage her to go to the toilet if she needs to poo.

Plenty of drinks and fruit/veg etc will help keep her poo from being hard if it's giving her actual discomfort.

Keep the nappies off during the day and watch for signs that she is witholding. I would then encourage her to sit on the potty and give her some privacy, if possible.

Be prepared with spare knickers in your pocket and to chuck a few pairs away.

Good idea to add extra fibre to her diet.

Thanks for this advice. Has anyone else had experience of toddler witholding and/or toddler seeming terrifed of pooing?

Yes I had this with DD. HV suggested putting her back in nappies which I was reluctant to do. I can remember it was frustrating. DD used to hide behing the settee saying 'don't look at me'. Sometimes I would lift her up and sit her on the toilet, felt cruel doing that, but it all came right in the end.

I was called upon to wipe her bottom until she was around 5 though.

Hi Twinsmommy, sorry not sure if you got my reply- trying to get the hang of this messaging thing as first time on.

My daughter is asking for nappys on to do poos which we take off afterwards. We could say no more nappys in the day but she seems so terrified when she does not have a nappy (she really crys and panics) or with the prospect of using the toilet or potty that it seems a bit mean to say no more nappies-or are we just being too soft?

Thanks abouteve that is useful.

Pinkcloud - I tend to think you are giving her very mixed messages and yes, sorry, do feel you are being too soft.

Your giving in and putting the nappies back on her is just taking a huge backwards step and letting her know that if she "creates" for long enough, she will get her own way.

I did suggest to someone on another thread to maybe try strategically placing the nappy in the bowl of the toilet so that she is still pooing into the nappy but sitting on the toilet also. Maybe worth a try. Also, covering the water in the toilet with tissue paper in case she doesn't like the splash or noise as the poo hits the pan.

If your daughter is asking for the nappies for poos - and you are giving them to her - who is in control here?

I wouldn't be overly concerned that she is holding her poo for long periods of time if she doesn't have a nappy on. As nature runs its course, the poo will, eventually make an appearance, whether there is a nappy on or not - especially if you are giving her plenty of fruit, veg, fibre!

I did read your advice Twinsmommy on another thread about putting the nappy in the toilet/potty and think that is a very good idea so will try that tomorrow. Thanks.

Best of luck pinkcloud - just passing on the steps I went through with my boys! Would love to hear how you get on!

When training my DD at 2.3 yrs, she liked to squeeze my hand as she poo'd. I told her it would help and I think if you regularly tell DCs something like this they'll believe it and relax. Pear and dates are good to soften stools - while bananas and white starchy foods can make them harder, i.e. I'm wih other posters - make it soft and nature will run it's course

I think there is good advice here about tactics but I would say you need to decide to either go for it or don't. I think it is easy to give confusing messages to toddlers. So either give up nappies or wait a bit longer. My oldest DS was about 3.3 before he appeared to be ready to potty train; he just didn't get it before then. Once he was ready, it was really quite quick and mastered in a couple of weeks. He also preferred to have privacy for a poo - who doesn't even now he tells me, "no mummy, I'm having an alone poo"

I know girls are said to be earlier out of nappies but there are no medals training early. Your child will do it when she's ready

If it's any help we approached it in stages with the old sticker chart bribe:

1. Sticker for anything in the potty

then once he'd got the hang of that

1. Sticker for poo in the potty
2. sticker for anything in the toilet
3. Sticker for poo in the toilet etc...

Tesco do cheapy sticker charts.

Hi Pinkcloud my DD used to withhold and it was a very stressful time, she would only do poos in nappies not on the toilet when she eventually couldn´t hold on any longer. As she´d been holding on so long the pooing was painful which would then reinforce the fear of pooing - awful vicious cycle. I have just recommended this book on another thread but it really helped us out "Constipation, Withholding and Your Child", it´s full of sound advice, practical and psychological, written by a Consultant Paediatrician who specialises in toileting problems. I also used to run to the toilet with her when she was half way through so that she at least finished on the toilet, she´d scream and shout but eventually realised it was nothing to be afraid of. I´d then shower her in praise, give her a star and after so many stars a present. I wish you all the best in sorting it out, I know how stressful it is. Is she actually withholding or just afraid of the loo? If its simply a fear of the loo but she´s going regularly in a nappy then I shouldn´t worry too much and think Twinsmommy´s advice of a nappy in the toilet is worth a go, with some bribe hanging over her head. I literally hung little toys, sweets, stickers etc by threads on a coathanger above the loo when training DS - he didn´t get the star thing and saw no value in a star on a piece of paper. Good luck with it all, it will come right...

If she is already witholding and in pain, which it sounds as if she is, to me, you need to get treatment first - which will take at least as long as the problem has existed, probaby twice as long IME. You need to see your GP asap. It sounds as if she is holding on so long that she has a blockage, and the little poos she is doing in her nappy are the little bits od "overflow" which are passed involuntarily.

Then, when the pain and witholding is sorted and her bowel retrained, you can move on with the potty training.

Unfortunately, as long as there is an association with pain and fear connected with pooing in her mind, she is going to associate that with the potty. IME.

Please, get help from your GP now. This can be a difficult condition to treat and is harder the longer you leave it.

Thanks MunkyNuts- that is really, really helpful. It has been a very stressful time. It started about a month before our second child was born- so her having a new sibling and us being quite tired and me BF probably has not helped issues.

We have already got that book (which is really good) and I would also recommend to others. We have done all the increasing the fibre and fluids in her diet thing. You are right it is a total vicious circle. She is both witholding (does many small smears in nappys per day) and is scared of potty and toilet.

Love advice about little pressies on coathanger as stars, stickers and food bribes not worked so far.

Thanks 3littlefrogs. She has been treated with lactulose- it is not a blockage but I agree could be overflow although not a serious physical medical condition.

We used lactulose too, are you still using it? I would keep using it if not to keep the poo soft, you need to gauge how much by trial and error. If there is overflow it would suggest there´s hard poo needing to get out(even if not a serious blockage) - just keep it all soft and flowing iykwim. We also put powdered fibre in DDs juice as her diet lacked good fibre. Also mixed prune juice in with her apple juice. DD has overcome this problem now but if we go away she tends to get constipated and doesn´t like to poo in other loos so I take lactulose with me and a small dose seems to do the trick. I spent a lot of time worrying about this issue and am so relieved its now under control, I kept up the Lactulose probably for longer than it was needed, gradually reducing the dose but keeping up the fibre powder, you have to break the withholding habit completely or they just revert when you stop. Bear with it and she will get into a regular pattern of "normal" pooing so when you stop the lactulose this has become her new habit. Right now you probably think its a problem that will never go away but keep persevering and it will get better. I´m sending you lots of strength vibes, this is a difficult enough issue without a new baby in the equation. Hope you get good results soon.

I agree with everything munkynuts has said.

IME lactulose on its own is not appropriate or sufficient for genuine witholding associated with blockage and overflow.

How long has the witholding been going on?

When did you start the lactulose?

How much are you using?

Are you still using it?

Just to give you an idea, when I was dealing with a very similar situation, I didn't carry on the treatment long enough the first time it was prescribed because i just didn't grasp the severity of the situation.

My GP stressed that I would need to persevere for at least as long as the problem had existed amd probably longer.

She prescribed:

Docusate 10 ml daily
Senna syrup 10 ml daily
Lactulose up to 20 ml daily
Glycerine suppositories, one daily.

(Nowadays I think movicol is more frequently prescribed).

It took 5 months of this before I could stop the suppositories, and a further 6 months of the medication at full dose, which then had to be reduced gradually over another 3 months.

During this time, dd wouldn't poo in the potty or toilet, only in a nappy, and it took time and patience to get her over her fear of the potty/toilet.

For the next 2 years I had to be vigilant and watch dd's diet and fluid intake, and very occasionally had to revert to the suppositories to get things going again if she didn't "go" for a couple of days.

This isn't a quick fix situation, IME.

HTH

Of course, if you are absolutely certain there is no blockage, then this may not be appropriate for you, but I am afraid it sounds very likely, based on what you have described.

I had a similar problem with dd1. She withheld poo and it became painful etc...In the end we used supositories (we were in Belgium at the time and this is what he advised). This cleared the blockage and then we created a bit of a routine.

DD1 used to have a bowel movement at the same time every day. So we would sit her on the loo and read books, chat, whatever it took to make it a relaxing time. Slowly she got the idea that this was the time to poo on the loo. We heaped the praise on her and made a big deal of how clever she was. It got such a big deal she would announce to random strangers that "she had just done a big poo". A bit embarassing on a crowded metro - but at least she was comfortable and happy!

We never used nappies during the day it was just easier to buy new ones and we didn't want to take a step backwards from the potty training. I hope this helps and try not to worry its just one of their many phases and she will grow out of it.

Pinkcloud I´d try other solutions first over suppositories (as per that book I mentioned above that you´ve already got, the author strongly disapproves of them). We used them once with DD when she was away from home and she was traumatised by the event and still talks about it. Obviously it works for some, 3 little frogs and lavenderbongo used them effectively so I guess each child reacts differently. We were living in Spain at time of DDs withholding and found a powder for constipated babies that you put in their milk, it was mainly magnesium and called Eupeptina, 1 teasp of this daily definitely helped soften the poo - not sure if there´s an equivalent in UK? Anyway, however you manage it, get it so that she can´t possibly hold the poo bcos its too runny, then gradually reduce the treatment so poo´s soft and keep it that way for a long time, one hard poo takes you backwards and the fear starts again. You will get there, it might just take a bit longer than you were hoping, just get it flowing, worry about the toilet vs nappy later, it´ll be easier once all the poos are soft and the hard poo fear has waned.

Dd has this problem. At over 3 we felt we really had to persevere and get her out of nappies and she really held on. HV advised me that if she went 3-4 days without pooing we should see our gp. GP put her on movicol and later added lactulose. Things got worse before they got better and sometimes I added senna if she got to 3-4 days again (on consultants advice).

If she's having lost of tiny poops then you know she's stopped up. When things get moving properly the little poop accidents stop.

We had to ditch day nappies/pull ups completely though to get any progress with potty/toilet. There were A LOT of accidents and weeks where I was afraid to venture out with her.

Things started to improve after about 10 months (the mose stressful parenting time for me definitely). Now I'm cutting down the lactulose and she goes on the potty or toilet every 2-3 days. Occaisionally, if it's been 3 days, I give her chocolate ex-lax at night.

She started school this week so I have been fantstically anxious to get this sorted out.

Thanks so much to all who have shared their stories and advice. It really does help to get practical advice and to know that others have been through this.

As from today we have ditched the daytime nappies and will restart the lactulose. Also tried to relax a bit and have a laugh with the potty etc.

Will let you know how we get on.

My son had constipation problems for years. We tried lactulose and senna but that seemed to make his tummy very crampy. He now takes movicol every day and goes to the loo every day.
We also got a childs seat for toilet that is a toilet seat that sits on top of toilet seat and takes away fear of falling down toilet. Hope this helps

dd1 held onto her poos for ages. The gp put her on senna and lactulose and it slowly sorted itself out. Her problems started at potty training. I have been told that if they do hold their poos in it can take a few months for the bowels to recover its original size so you do have to be prepared for her to be taking the medication for a while. Also senna and lactulose can make them feel uncomfy.

Dd1 is 6 now and fine but she was on medication for the whole of pre-school and reception and the school were aware of her problem (she was not the only onw). It is a surprisingly common problem particularly among girls.