Help - Is DPs discpline of DS out of order please help me decide

[wheresmypaddle]

Today is my birthday. DS (2.5), DP and I had a lovely eve and I went for quick drink with friend leaving DP to put DS to bed.

Whilst I was out DS hit DP hard in face was told not to do it again, which he promptly did as hard as he could by all accounts. DP asked DS to say sorry- (standard response in our family which usually works after a few min, then cuddles and all is forgotten).

DS refused to say sorry was just shouting 'no'. So DP said he needed to stay in his room until he said sorry. At this point I arrived home and decided not to undermine DP and left him to it. DS stood stock still and silent in bedroom for an hour- DP popped in every 15 min or so asking him if he was ready to say sorry- he just shouted no.

It was getting so late I decided DS needed to go to bed (although DP wanted to continue the stand off. I went up, told DS he had made Daddy sad by hurting him and he should say sorry but it was now bedtime. He had his milk, did teeth, went to bed still refusing to apologise.

DP went in said goodnight and told DS he would need to say sorry before they could play together again.

DS feels undermined and he wants DS to know he must say sorry- so he wants me to carry on as normal in morning but to tell DS there will be no playing with Daddy or fun with Daddy until he has said sorry.

I want to stick beside DP but I'm not sure if he is being too harsh on DS. What do others think should happen tomorrow (DS will be going to nursery at 9am, he goes one day a week)- should Daddy insist on apology??

Sorry to ramble on but I feel stuck between two wills of iron and I dont want to undermine DP or be too harsh on DS- help!!!

Thanks everyone- so you are mostly suggesting it is OK for DS not to say sorry and perhaps in future we shouldn't insist that he does so? (until he is a bit older). Sorry if my questions seem stupid its just I had thought that we should generally stick to our guns however this particular situation has shown that maybe thats not always the best approach.

at his age, I'd tell him to say sorry but not get into a massive stand off about it - if he won't then look v disappointed and go on about how that make you feel sad etc. and don't ever carry anything over to the next day = v bad habit to get into = you don't want to end up with someone who can sulk for weeks on end (is your dh like that?)

I think you are getting very caught up with the word sorry, with a 2yo I feel you should concentrate on helping him to understand what he did that was wrong, to empathise with the 'victim', and to take steps to make the 'victim' feel better.

There is still plenty of time for him to learn that one of the many ways of making people feel better is to say sorry to them.

As parents you need to find a way of closing this situation quickly and effectively. Hanging around for days, punishing a very small child endlessly for not saying that one little word, seems unproductive and potentially counter productive.

with ds2 I didn't say he needed to say sorry, but that it would be nice if he said sorry and that even if he didn't feel particularly sorry that it would make the other person feel better

eventually the social norms won the day and he will say sorry now, but it took a while

tbh I'm not surprised your ds refused to apologise if your dp was keeping him in his room - I'd be furious if someone bigger than me shut me up for an hour, even if I had just whacked them!

TBH DP and I are both rather stubborn , I am terrible but I hope I that by knowing that I'm too stubborn I make an effort to keep it in check.

I have maybe had the wrong idea about discipline- I thought it was very important to always stick by my guns with DS. If I'm honest I am scared that if I am not very firm with him his lovely spirited nature will tip out of my control- maybe I have watched too much supernanny!!

Wheresmypaddle

It seems inappropriate because its childish to say "I won't play with you", and your dh is the parent/grownup. Maybe because that is an emotional punishment - it just seems a bit mean and I can't see what good it will do to extract a meaningless apology.

Is your ds a mature enough 2 yo that you can discuss this with him?

Maybe adopt a zero tolerance policy for hitting - full stop.

Just to be clear DP didn't shut DS in his room- the door was open. I'm not sure that he did the right thing but just wanted to clarify that he wasn't shut up in his room with the door closed.

You definitely need to be consistent with your discipline, but one of the hardest hings I've found in parenting is trying to come up with flexible ways of handling situations. Just as I think I'm getting to grips with a situation and things are starting to run smoothly, one or other of my DCs will find a way of throwing a spanner in the works. So it's up to me as the parent to rethink my approach so that I get the same end result, even if I have to take a different tack to get there.

In the example we've been talking about here, Wheresmypaddle, I think you should 100% stick with the message that hitting is not tolerated. However, you need to find a different way of breaking the deadlock over 'sorry' cos it sounds like you might be waiting forever.

Piprabbit- you are right its been a difficult evening because I have realised that I thought i had got my approach sorted and now I realise that its needs to be more flexible.

I am a bit of a black and white type person but need to try to allow for the 'grey' situations where a different approach is needed.

As the evening goes on I feel more and more terrible for my little sleeping DS who has maybe been treated too harshly tonight. I can't totally blame DP as in reality I think he was following the aproach that I had encouraged up to now.

I wonder if I overreact to his stubborn streak (as I see myself and DP reflected in it I guess).

you are very reflective though so that will help you work out an approach that suits you all. of course, once you've worked it out, you'll have to change it to suit the new child you find before you .

I think saying sorry at 2.5 is pretty meaningless tbh. I'm amazed that your ds stayed in his room for an hour. My ds at that age wouldn't and I wouldn't have expected him to. It is never nice when toddlers lash out but forcing an apology doesn't stop it from happening again.

If ds did that I would explain to him why it was wrong and what he should do (apologise) and why. I would ensure that it didn't turn in to a battle of wills, which appears to have happened with your dp.

I'm so sorry your birthday has ended like this. I'm sure your DS will be fine in the morning. In similar situations I peek at my sleeping DCs and just want to wake them up for a cuddle, they look so small and soft and innocent when alseep (even if they were causing chaos right up to the moment their eyes shut).

I have a book I rely on called Raising Happy Children, which I turn to for ideas when I get stressed. It has lots of quotes from parents which always ring a bell and make me feel like giving the suggestions a go. I'd recommend it if you fancy a trip to the library .

Thanks everyone!! Piprabbit I will order the book you suggested from the library on Friday i think I could do with some inspiration.

Have been to see DS given him a kiss and put a couple of extra teddies in with him.

I do hope DP and I haven't come across as awful parents tonight- DS is the light of our life, we love him with all our hearts and are just trying to do our best to raise him well- I have learnt a lesson though and when DP wakes in the morning I will discuss this with him.

Definitely not awful parents - just ones who have had their buttons pressed, and who temporarily ran out of ideas as to what to do next.

It happens to us all and we can keep on trying to do out best.

Good luck in the morning.

My comment on this would be to talk about positive language/requests...

I try to ask my DC for the behaviour I want, I call it 'keep it in the cup' to remind myself - so instead of 'don't spill your drink', I say 'keep it in the cup' iyswim.

I do the same for behaviour, I ask for 'kind hands' or say 'be gentle' rather than 'no hitting' on the grounds that you should alway ask for the required behaviour.

It may sound a bit tree huggerish, but there is a sound background to it but I'm too knackered to go into it now!

IMHO it is not appropriate for a punishment to be carried over, particularly for a Dc as young as this. I do not think it is the slippery slope to an asbo.

If he's afraid of empty threat parenting then he needs to stop making silly threats. A 2.5 yo can really only understand the here and now, and I agree that he will most likely have forgotten the incident next day. An appropriate punishment would be the 2 minute timeout, immediately after the unacceptable behaviour takes place, so the 2yo can link his actions to the consequences. Did your DH take it rather personally that he was hit in the face? Sometimes men think they are being challenged at a basic level on their own 'turf' by a toddler' natural inclination to refuse to co-operate, to disregard instructions, etc.; challenging daddy and seeking to question his authority are not necessarily the toddler's intention. How did the evening go before the hitting broke out? Seems to me there may have been a bit of friction between the two of them during the evening? Another possibility is that there was a bit of roughhousing and DS didn't understand the limits of that behaviour -- maybe got overexcited and started hitting?

An update - DP and I spoke early this morning and decided that all would be forgotten other than a short bright conversation about it being wrong to hit and nice to say sorry followed by cuddles.

DP went in to see DS as soon as he woke up and the first words he said were (no promting) "my sorry my hit my daddy" - DP was holding back the tears and apologised to DS for his long time out saying "Daddy got a bit too upset"!!

Thankyou for all your suggestions- we will be taking a more flexible approach in future.

Mathanxiety I can see where you are coming from but as far as I am aware there was no friction or 'roughhousing'- DS didn't want his nappy on and that was why he hit DP.

good that your DP has decided to be somewhat reasonable.

I strongly feel that with some children, you don't need to force the 'time out then apology' thing.

Your ds is clearly strong willed and there is absolutely no point making situations worse by trying to force apologies. The time out is the consequence to the bad behaviour - as a parent that's what you can enforce....the saying sorry comes about through you as parents role modelling it TO your son. Say sorry to him when necessary and to each other etc and he will copy this behaviour.

The feeling you get when your child genuinely apologises to you because they feel sorry, is so good and far better imo than a learned behaviour eg stand in room for two minutes and say a certain word to 'get out'.....

Thanks slowreadingprogress I think you have a very good point. I had somehow thought that the "sorry" part of time out was absolutely essential to the process- not sure why, too much supernanny / House of Tiny Tearaways maybe.

However after having a proper think about it and reading these posts I think I was wrong.

I don't think I will be insisting on an apology following time out (which we only do for really unacceptable behaviour as DS is only 2.5) any more. Otherwise the original reason for time out will get lost in a battle for an apology which he does not fully grasp the concept of.

"the original reason for time out will get lost in a battle for an apology which he does not fully grasp the concept of"...that's it exactly.

I imagine for some more compliant children, they would settle to that routine of 'time out then sorry' ok....but it's not worth a battle. If it's a battle then it's not about getting a genuine sorry from the child but more about squashing them and imposing your will.....

FWIW I never made my ds say sorry, ever - and he did start to do it completely unforced, and is a very very polite boy so you're not setting your child up to be rude if you don't fight this issue

Good for you by the way, you and DH have been very reasonable about this and the thing (IMHO) about being a good parent is that you genuinely learn along the way and evaluate what you're doing I certainly have found the first 7 years a huge learning curve!!!

Your dp needs to get a fucking grip. he's allowing family dynamics top be dictated by a toddler. How thrilling for your son, that he can control daddy for days, simply by saying no!

You're going to have fun in your house when your DC gets older.
Sounds like your DS and DP are VERY alike.

yes that's a good point colditz - saying "i won't do this till you say sorry" gives the power over to the child. But I think wheremypaddle and her DH have thought about this and realise this - in the heat of the moment her DH wasn't thinking clearly, but he's had the good grace to re-think, so problem solved imo.

Also don't use emotions as blackmail, because they do have a nasty way of bitting you back hard.
Make sure that your DS knows that Mummy and Daddy will ALWAYS love him no matter what BUT that sometimes they don't like his behaviour.
At that age, he needs to know that he has unconditional love and that means not threatening to take attention away.
Just use a different tactic, like taking a favourite toy away or losing a treat.
Have a familly sit down and group hug!

oh, and the other thing I wanted to add in case it helps, is not to lose faith in your approach - kids need to learn by experience and it's perfectly possible your DS will whack or hit alot more times before he learns. That does not mean your approach is not working, it just means that children this age have not developed their brains enough yet to stop impulsive behaviours. They naturally act on the impulse of the moment. But as they mature they 'get' it, specially if they have always been given a consistent consequence.

So it's a process rather than a one-hit solution.