so finally, my 3 1/2 year old boy has got me shouted at in public....

[pollypeachum]

Sorry about the length of this, but this incident has upset me.
My older twin, very tall for his age, has had an unfortunate prediliction for pushing and shoving other children for no good reason. It used to be much worse but he's growing out of it and has practically stopped. Nor entirely though, sadly....
On the basis that he seems to be a good hearted child otherwise, I am assuming (hoping!) that its a "stage." I have deliberately avoided things like soft play places where he could have run riot though, and stopped going to our local toddler group when his bigness for his age made him too big to be rough, compared to his peers/younger children. If you see what I mean.
The fact that he's a twin doesn't help of course because I can't keep an eye on both of them at once....
Anyway - there we were on our local highstreet at the end of a long day running errands. Both children had been good as gold. Then, just as we were about to go back to the car park, my boy for no good reason gives another child a shove - I was out of earshot but he probably told said child he was going to put him in jail - its the game they're playing at home.
Mother of said child immediately rounds on my boy saying very loudly and very repetively what a horrible, rude, nasty child he is. Her child by the by is not crying and has not been hurt. Not that thats an excuse - I have told my boy until blue in the face not to shove other children. Anyway, I tell him off but decide against sending him over to say sorry because she's still expostulating about how vile he is and I very much doubt he'd have wanted to approach her. I say that he is only three, although he seems much older. She says thats no excuse. I say I'm very sorry, she says he should be the one apologising, not me, and that he's vile. I say again that he is only three, she says I should teach my children some manners. I say I do! and she pulls a face and says not much. I decide discretion is the best course and we beat hasty retreat.
Its been bothering me ever since. Yes, my boy can be rough but he's three and a lot less rough than he used to be. Its not as if he punches, bites, kicks, nips - he just gives the odd shove and sometimes stands in the way, being bloody minded, and saying that no other children are allowed on the slide. He's always been very affectionate and these days he generally plays well with others and is a popular child.
So - I'm afraid to ask this because the truth might hurt - am I wrong to think that being three explains his behaviour, as I was trying to say to the other mother? Or is she right and am I effectively a sh*te parent for not teaching him some manners? I think she overreacted and jumped to the wrong conclusions. For example, I think its extremely bad manners to shout at and insult a stranger in the street!
Sorry to ramble - I've been stewing over this for a week!

"And I really disagree that the OP should be able to get her child to stop pushing by 3."

And I really disagree right back at you. Yes of course most 3 year olds will push occasionally - frustration, not being able to articulate etc...but occasional pushing is quite different from a tendancy to do this.

OP was describing that her ds has an "unfortunate prediliction for pushing and shoving other children for no good reason"...and also that he likes to stand at the bottom of a slide and tell other kids they are not coming down out of bloody mindedness (her words not mine)etc

Sure, the little fella isn't Damien and a doubtless a perfectly lovely child, but it does seem like he has some behavioural issues that need addressing, and a 3 year old can learn that this is not acceptable behaviour and it will attract a sanction.

She's probably feeling embarrassed at how she overreacted. It's natural to defend your children, which is what you both did.

i think the other mum wasn't polite but if anyones kid had ambushed my dd i would certainly tell them off-and expect the mother to insist said child apologised whether mine was damaged or not.
If they wont walk on reins and you can't stop them bolting off and attacking other kids then you need to find an alternative.
your children are no more special than anyone elses kids are to them-
and as for msled. seriously? you'd kick off for someone reprimanding your child if it had launched an unprovoked attack in the street?why is your child allowed to behave that way without anyone else being able to comment?

Polly

This is what I do. Might not work for you but you asked so I felt obliged to share!

1. Anticipate and Warn
2. Remind and Punish
3. Reinforce

So for example:

1. "Now ds we are off the Post Office. I want you to behave. That means there will be no pushing and hitting. You know that it is wrong. If you hurt anyone then I will... [insert effective deterrent - not buy you a comic/ not let you play at Harry's later / etc etc. If you are good though I will be so pleased and proud (etc)

2)"Ds you've just pushed that little girl. I warned you not to do that. That means you now can't..." [refer to sanction that you previously warned him about].

3)At home later - probably in bath or at bedtime when he is feeling relaxed (and so ready for reflection). "Well what sort of day have we had - have you been a good boy do you think?"..and encourage him to discuss the day. I would then praise him for things that went well during the day and hope that he would raise the incident of his own volition - if not I would remind him, discuss it and take opportunity to reinforce.

Surely there are very few children who are completely immune to all sanctions. My youngest is now 5 so perhaps I have a greater range at my disposal than you do with a 3 year old (mine include: no bedtime story, no tv, no Wii, up to your room, not being able to go on pre-arranged visit to see friend etc etc)

Its great to see all the responses.
With hindsight - again a wonderful thing, in my OP I would not have stressed his "unfortunate prediliction" so much.
As I said, he's practically outgrown it - by which I mean very nearly 100%. On that day, in those circs - end of long day doing boring errands with me - I would genuinely say that he was no more likely to shove than any other three year old in the same situation. That he did, doesn't, in my opinion and given my knowledge of my child, prove me wrong. So I don't think I was wrong in not having him on reins. Nor have I failed to implement any of the other behavioural stragegies suggested - hence, I think, why he's just about over it and, as I said, a popular child!
Obviously I do the sort of things that HMC suggested - but thank you for taking the time to respond. I did wonder though when you mentioned more stringent sanctions what you might have had in mind!
I suppose my original question should have been - do we think its reasonable to expect a three year old to be PERFECTLY behaved? I don't, although I do expect high standards from all my children.
This dicussion has given me pause for thought though - although in the past he's been rough, I'm going to have to be careful not to define him going forward as a rough child. He's nice and I need to remember that too!
Its a wierd thing, posting about one's child. As much as anything, I now feel guilty for having exposed him to the judgement of strangers!

I'm mum of a big-for-his-age pusher/shover, too. It's bloody hard work, isn't it?!

I have had several run ins like this (usually at softplay, which I now avoid like the plague), and it is mortifiying, to get that 'Bad Mother' look from other mums.

Happily, most kids grow out of this phase by the time they're 4 -ish (my DS is 4 yrs old and has some more serious issues, so it is still going on unfortunately), so try not to worry too much. People (like that woman) who take the moral high ground and then verbally abuse a small child are just pathetic. Your boy is 3 yrs old. What's her excuse? Act like an adult - rationally, respectfully - even if others can't manage it.

Poor you OP - regardless of whether he is a serial pusher or not the other mother should not have over-reacted like that. My DS1 has never been much of a pusher, but once in a playground he did shove another boy (they were both about 2 1/2). The mother didn't say anything directly to me or DS but just said in a really loud voice something like "what a horrible rude little boy" blah blah and scooped up her child and stomped out of the playground. It really upset me and I know just how you feel! If another child pushed one of mine, I wouldn't hesitate to tell them politely "please don't push, you might hurt someone" or something but I wouldn't automatically judge the child or the parent.

i think we need a playgroup for dc who might push so us mums with the so called 'vile' children can relax in company, knowing all are kids are the same!! soft play area for pushing children!!! i'll start one with my 3 year old!! like the rest he is getting better!!

I dont expect my three year old to be perfectly behaved, she is often noisy, she occassionally walks in silly patterns which means other people in the high st cant walk properly and have to stop (she gets two warnings then its walking holding me, one if it was exceptionally silly) there are occassional tantrums but i remove her from public as much as possible, she is not allowed to be aggressive or violent to others, if i thought that she was i would restrain her be it holding my hand, on a strap or in a buggy. Sorry.

I wouldnt have spoke rudely to your child but i would not have been impressed if i felty your attitude was that it was normal and behaviour no different to " than any other three year old in the same situation"

I know I'd be upset if a 3 year old shoved my DD on the street and told her he was going to put her in jail.
I wouldn't see it as "normal behaviour" as he's "only 3"
But I just can't imagine calling a child 'vile' - how horrible!

I think littleducks has a point about that you're maybe doing yourself a disservice in avoiding toddler groups etc.

Her children will be the kind who grow up thinking everyone should be like them and scorn people who aren't.

I always say 'that wasn't a kind thing to do' whether it's my DS or another child. My DS is also very tall and I agree people have high expectations.

On the other hand it won't bve jusy a phase unless he learns otherwise. Don't avoid situations. These are your places to teach him to behave properly.

littleducks - I can't stress enough that I don't think it acceptable on the basis of being what three year olds do. I think 3 years olds can do it - and much worse - but thats its our responsibility as parents to teach them not to.

On my avoidance of certain situations, I feel that I got the emphasis of my original post wrong. I used to avoid soft play, but I don't any more. Hence we were out and about in town! Hence my children play well with their friends and peers. I did pull out of toddlers because in the confines of a small hall, with larger toddlers and tiny babies - it caters for newborns to age fives - there is scope for accidents - and they happened. And not in fact caused by my boys.

I have found this discussion very useful in helping me to clarify what I think about the situation I found myself in. The shortcomings though for me of the discussion is that it seems to be hard for me to explain myself fully and in the proper context. Thus people react to their perception of me, based on my posts - which I'm beginning to think are less articulate than they should be for someone who has always thought she expressed herself well in writing! Hence hmc felt it necessary - and very well meant, I have no doubt - to outline strategies that I regard as a given in bringing up children. Hence someone suggested that I should have loaded my stuff into the car first to keep the children out of troube - I was nowhere near a car and I had no "stuff" in my hands (I always carry across the body bag to leave both hands free to hold onto the little dears where there's traffic or other dangers).
I am really grateful to you all for responding, but I'm beginning to think that we agree with each other even when we think we don't! My fault entirely for being such a cr*p poster!!

And I should clarify what I mean by a shove in these circs - its not a question of shoving the other child off his feet, he wasn't even rocked on his toes. You could more accurately describe it as standing too close and putting a hand on the other child's shoulder while muttering darkly about putting the other child in jail - he has listened to too many Noddy stories and is rather too impressed with PC Plod's ability to put the goblins in jail. Now I don't think thats acceptable, and I've told him so.
He's not an out and out hooligan, but thats how someone who didn't know him might have read my OP.
By saying 3 years olds aren't perfect, I'm not shrugging off bad behaviour. However, I don't believe that at that age they are perfect social beings. It is our responsibility as parents to teach them to become socialy compatible, and I do so by constantly reminding, reprimanding, rewarding.

I totally agree that the other woman was way out of order. I would have no qualms about firm words to my dcs or other people's, but what she said was just mean.

But...you say your ds "won't" wear reins. In that case I think you should make him hold your hand in the street if you think a potential shoving situation could happen. It doesn't matter if he doesn't want to, if you think he needs to then you have to make him.

I have a ds who at 3 was unpredictable and he absolutely HAD to hold my hand in streets, no arguments.

OP - woman was completely unreasonable. Kids are horrid sometimes, they just are! If another child does something unpleasant to one of mine, I ask them to stop it and tell them that their behaviour is not nice. It would never occur to me to think that the child is vile! What a nasty place her mind is.

As for those saying the OPs DS should be in reins or in a buggy at 3yo.... are you kidding!?!?! Reins are for newly-walking toddlers who still don't have any concept of how to follow mummy and wander off. And buggies are rarely necessary once a child is over 3 except to carry shopping bags! My 3yo can walk over 3 miles and hasn't been a buggy since her sister was born 18 months ago!

Sorry but 3 year olds do not go shoving strange children in the street. Understandable in a play area where they have got over excited, but not just walking down the street. I not surprised the other mum got upset, she may have over reacted but she was probably in shock at what your child did. I don't see why she is the villain in the tale when you didn't even make your child apologise.

When my DD was 5 and just started school she used to run off after school out the gates. I said to her if she did it again I would get athe wrist strap, she did so I got a wrist strap and bought it along to collect her from school. I never had to use it, but she never ran off again.

Bruffin - please read my last post, esp the clarification about what I mean by a shove. I stand by my decision not to make him apologise - she was shouting so much he was clearly frightened - so was I and my other child who by then was trying to run away he was so shocked - and would not have approached her and her child.

Thank you all for your contributions, but I fear that we are in danger of going round in circles!

I've worked out how I feel about the incident by the way - utter, utter humiliation and I'm not sure that posting helps, esp when I seem to be so bad at explaining myself!

I am off to lurk on Style and Beauty, neither of which I possess but hope to achieve by osmosis.

Well he is never going to learn if his mother keeps making excuses for him is he!I have read what you say he did and it is abnormal behaviour for a 3 year old to do anything like that to a strange child.
Maybe your son may have actually have learned something from this incident and won't do it again.

I was going to suggest reins. He's three, he can't decide whether to wear them or not. Also wonder how he was 'out of earshot' at 3 in a public place? I do think if he has got this thing about shoving, which he clearly still has if unsupervised, then he needs to be attached to you basically.

polly You have made yourself perfectly clear. I would move on and hide this thread if I were you

(I go to Baby Names to cheer myself up , BTW)

He will learn eventually, because one day he will push someone who will push back. Probably harder as they will be the outraged party and feel that right is on their side.
Just don't be surprised, shocked or embarrassed when it happens.

I think being a young child does (sort of) excuse his behaviour. It's very common in under fives to do things like this but very hard to understand if your child has never been the kind to do it.

The majority of posters here agree that this behaviour is normal, even if not acceptable, for toddlers of this age.
The mother was wrong to overreact like she did and the language she used was unacceptable (why do I think of Supernanny every time I write that word?). BUT. Perhaps her children a) DON'T push strangers (some don't you know!) and b) Haven't seen an episode of Noddy - if a child taller than your own suddenly puts a hand on their shoulder and whispers "You're off to jail" or similar, then I'm sorry, but I too would be thinking "WTF".
I wouldn't react like she did, but perhaps she did it out of shock and in defence of her own child - with words like this (and again I stress assuming her child doesn't know the Noddy script) who knows what may come next.

It's difficult to know which bit is the 'bad' bit - at the start it seemed like the shoving was the cause of the problem but then later you say it wasn't a shove but a hand on the shoulder. In which case it must be the words. Has your son almost grown out of doing the mock policeman too?

My dd was hit with a great big stick while on her tricycle in the park when I was right next to her, by a child who was a complete stranger. It's quite a shock when something like this happens as you are not expecting it at all. You kind of have to accept that things like this are going to happen at toddler groups and the like as they are always fighting over toys.

I shouted at the other child (I didn't call him vile though) and I grabbed his wrist and I threw away his stick. There is no WAY I would have reacted like that at a toddler group. The randomness of the attack definitely affected the way I reacted.

The other mother went off the deep end, and I'm sure she knows this, because unless you're completely out of touch, you replay things in your mind, and eventually come to the right conclusion. But I would say also that you should have been within earshot of your DS out in public in a highstreet/carpark area, even if only for your DSs safety. As well as that, there's a chance that he could accidentally push a child into traffic, which would be really regrettable.

He will probably outgrow this, but in the meantime, try to catch him being good and praise his co-operativeness and gentleness if you see it, take the time to remind him of the expectations you have about his behaviour before you get to the playdate or playground or whatever, then take him away from situations where he throws his weight around, tell him other children can be hurt or bruised if he knocks them over, and that's why he can't shove them.

I hope he wasn't upset for too long by the tirade from the cow you met. That must have been horrible for him. Three year olds can certainly be little monkeys but they are lovable and sweet and they mean no harm. What a shame that woman got so personal. What sort of a driver would you say she was?

savoycabbage was the child much older than DD?