Is my Granddaughter an ‘intelligent being’ , advice please

[ChiannasNanna]

I am asking this on behalf of my daughter, as she does not have Internet access. My granddaughter Chianna is just two years old; she was slightly premature at birth and weighed a little over 5 pounds. She had a ?tongue tie? that was eventually corrected at six months old, her only other medical problem was reflux that was treated with Gaviscon until she was about 14 months old.

She eats very little and recently when weighed she was 18 pounds, having put 2 ounces on in 8 weeks. The food she likes is cucumber, yoghurt, noodles and dried foodstuff like Cherioes, but these are all in small quantities, she does not have any problems with drinking, she likes water and milk.

The other problem that is most distressing for my daughter is the fact that Chianna has not slept through the night once. It is never the same pattern, she might wake crying or just get out of bed and ?go find? Mummy. She was taken out of her cot and put into a child?s bed about 6 months ago when she abseiled her way out of her cot and somehow managed it without breaking something or doing her self any damage.

Her health visitor and Doctor have said that there is nothing wrong with her regarding her weight and she is relatively healthy apart from colds so nutritionally they feel she is o.k. With regards to sleep everything from teething to colds have been blamed, and her Doctor even prescribed a pre op sedation for her to try and get her into a sleep pattern, all to no avail, it did not even touch her and made no difference at all.

She will sleep for anything from 1-3 hours before waking, and then she might only sleep anything from 10 to 30 minuets when it all starts again. She could have my daughter up anything from 2 to 6 times a night; in the end she usually takes her to bed with her and her husband jus so that she can get some sleep. She is a ?normal? active toddler, inquisitive and in the main very content, sleeps during the day for 45 min to an hour, sometimes in the morning and afternoon depending on how tired she is and how she slept the night before, and her bedtime is between 7 and 8 pm.

The final thing is Chianna gets very frustrated very easily, if she wants to do something she has to get you to do it NOW, she becomes even more frustrated if she cannot make you understand what it is she wants or wants you to do, leading to tears and screams.

I know I am going to sound biased, but I feel sure that most of Chianna?s problem stem from the fact that she is an ?intelligent being? and she does not know how to communicate that intelligence, and more to the point we do not know how to channel it or indeed measure it to see if that is the problem.

I asked my daughter to treat her as an ?intelligent being? by reasoning and by helping her to communicate better, rather than just saying, ?no you cannot do ? or have? explaining the reason why, and surprisingly that has made a small difference, she understands better, it?s just the answer she does not like! My daughter by the way is a qualified NNEB, having spent several years as a Nanny to three children as well as Montessori teaching before having Chianna.

Her development has been noticeable from just over a year old, and it is going at such a fast pace it is hard to keep up with her. She is tactile, can dress and undress herself, put on and remove shoes, she got the idea of toilet training in a day, in fact she was the one telling my daughter she wanted to go to the toilet, none of this ?do you want to go? (she ?missed out? on the potty bit, going straight for using the toilet) her speech and language comprehension is vast and grows daily, her memory and recall are frightening, it?s just that she has a problem getting the ?grown up?s? to understand her!!!

She clearly needs channelling and the health visitor is less than supportive in any way other than her health and well-being, A good example is that Chianna has never been content to press the tummy of a toy to make it move or speak, she will locate it?s mechanism by unzipping or unfastening it?s housing then remove it?s mechanism, make it work and put it back together again!!

So with this history and some knowledge of Chianna, is there ANYONE who can offer advice or suggestions please?? Are there other Mum?s whose children do not eat and sleep, or does anyone know if there are any way?s of testing a two year old that is going on ten??!!!,

All suggestions greatly received, many thanks,
Jo

Hi Jo,

You might find it useful to contact an organisation such as National Association for Gifted Children . They may be able to help if you want to find out more about tests. I don't know much about them other than they exist but they have a questionnaire on their website which might help you determine if she may be gifted.

My own daughter didn't sleep much until she was just over two years old and once it happened I felt amazing more human again She dropped day time naps at a very early stage (20mo) and she also toilet trained fairly early - 21months (also didn't use a potty) and night trained at the same time she started sleeping through the night (25mo).

sorry nanna, but I think you should keep your nose out. It sounds like your daughter is not only a good mother, but a qualified caretaker and therefore perfectly able to bring up her child without you constantly making suggestions and trying to questions her parenting. If your daughter was bothered enough by Chianna's night wakings she would do something more definitive about it. The HV and gp have said that there is nothing wrong with Chianna's healthy/weight/eating. Again, if your daughter was worried she would do something about it. Your granddaughter sounds very able and intelligent. My mother too thinks her grandson (my son) is the smartest child ever. However, that doesn't mean that there is anything that your daughter should be "doing" at this stage in her daughter's life. Let her parent in her own way and stop giving her advice.

That's a bit harsh isn't it?!

Hi ChiannasNanna,

Sounds like your daughter is doing a great job with Chianna.

Eating and sleeping- well, they're always the biggies aren't they? Keeping calm and consistent are the only ways I know and are, as ever, easier said than done! I have 4 year old twins and when they were at that age found that calmly returning them to bed as many times as it took eventually paid off. There were and are times when I'm just too tired to do this though, so we sometimes even now have little blips in their sleeping patterns when they join us in our bed. When I get sick of being pummelled by wriggling boys on consecutive nights I start forcing myself to return them to their own beds the moment they set toe in our room! They soon get the message.

In my opinion, the key is that your daughter believes that Chianna will be just fine in her own bed. If there are doubts about this in her mind- if for any reason she doesn't think Chianna is ready- then she might as well resign herself to having Chianna in her bed for a while. Nothing she tries will work unless she is willing to stay firm and my experience is that you just can't stay firm if you are not convinced you're doing the right thing by your child. The guilt is just too much!

Similarly with eating. Many parents- especially when their babies are a bit smaller than average or were preemies- worry terribly that their children are not eating enough. Yet the reality is that it is EXTREMELY unusual for toddlers to starve themselves and the only way forward that I've found helpful is to stop worrying, provide a wide range of foods and hope for the best, trying not to get frustrated as they turn their delicate little noses up at everything healthy on the menu! If you really believe in your heart of hearts that they'll be fine, they seem to pick up on this and let up a bit on refusing food for the sake of annoying you.

Chianna does sound very bright from what you've said and I'm sure that someone like your daughter who is so well trained at working with children in the early years will have loads of ideas about doing interesting stuff that will keep her stimulated and learning. Personally I'm not keen on testing tiny tots as I'm not sure what you do with the "official" information that you've got a bright spark on your hands, other than what you and your daughter are doing already.

Welcome to mumsnet, by the way.

Sofia, nanna did start her post by saying that her daughter has asked her to ask for advice on her behalf. It would seem that Chianna's mum wants help and has already asked her mum...not that nanna is providing an unsolicited, intefering presence.

Jo, my DD wasn't premature, but her language did come on quite slowly and she was always quick to temper as we often could not understand her. I think that thing to remember is that things like language come on at their own pace and you could actually hinder rather than help by trying to provide extra help. Lots of children, including my DD who is 4, are bad sleepers. In fact my DD didn't start sleeping better until she went to nursery and was just tired and satisfied from a whole days stimulation with other kids.

Obviously if its your daughter who feels unable to cope than perhaps it would be best to find ways to help her, perhaps giving her time to herself rather that trying to help Chianna, who sounds like alot of normal, but bright, children her age.

I have to agree with SofiaAmes comments. I too have a mother who thinks my dd is advanced and I agree she is but at 2.7 who's to say the "rest" won't catch up. My dd has never slept through the night and eats when she wants, when she wants. She is willfull and defiant - aren't they all at this age? The playgroup leader thinks she is extremely bright, articulate and sociable however I want her to learn through play and interaction as there is plenty of time for school work. Don't make them grow up too quickly I say.

This is a basic suggestion, but one thing I think you could do is to get your daughter in front of a computer, if you and her like the idea of mumsnet. I take it your daughter does not have a computer. Could she use yours sometimes (if you have one) or go to an internet cafe while you look after chianna? You seem like a really supportive and concerned grandmother.

I say this simply because your daughter might IMO gain much more from talking or reading mumsnet postings direct, rather than hearing of them through a third party - you or anyone else. Sleeping and feeding problems can be complex and the ways you deal with them, or not, are very personal as I'm sure you realise. Sorry, I know this is stating the obvious. Have you thought about printing out some of the sleep and feeding threads for your daughter to look through?

Also - everyone I know who dropped the sides of the cot, or moved into a "real" bed so early has suddenly had terrible trouble with nights. Hip Hip Hurrah for grobags, which keeps them warm, snug, and unable to climb out of the cot, but still mobile enough to stand, and crawl around, and therefore IN the cot for a lot longer... As far as my experience goes anyway...

I agree your granddaugher sounds very bright indeed, but also think all children are intelligent beings, and their experience and intelligence expands rapidly, but usually quicker than their ability to communicate, or to deal with their strong emotions does, and therefore it is more about learning to do these things before things settle down.

Queenie and Sofia, calm down ladies. The message from chiannasnanna did say her daughter had asked for help. Just because you have interfering relatives doesn't mean the situation is the same as yours. It sounds to me like nanna is a loving and supportive grandmother who is trying her best to support her daughter. As someone who has a daughter who didn't (and still doesn't) sleeo well, I know how desperate you can get.

My solution to the sleep problems was to allow my daughter to sleep in with me. She has not slept well from day one, and now aged 2 she is still in my bed. Initially she was waking in the night and I was taking her into bed with me. I finally realised that as she was ending up in my bed every night I might as well put her down in my bed to start with - and then I don't get a disturbed night - she just sleeps through. There are lots of negative reactions in society towards bed sharing with children, but if your daughter is happy with the situation then she shouldn't be discouraged. I would recommend she reads "Three in a Bed" by Deborah Jackson which reasurred the reservations I didn't even know I had.

As far as the food issues go, I would always say don't worry. She won't starve herself, and there's no point getting stressed by it. You might as well just accept it and worry about the more important stuff.

It does sound like Chianna might be bright. It must be incredibly tough to know what you want and not be able to make your feelings understood. It sounds like your daughter is handling it very well. IMO the best thing she can do is just give her as much space as possible and allow her to exert her will when reasonably possible. Keep the "No"s for when it really matters and try not to make battles if they can be avoided.

HTH

Just another thought - I agree with Batters about not labelling her, and not needing to provide extra activities, but I think allowing her as many different sensory activities as possible might be helpful. Just encouraging her to discover and experience as many different things as possible through play, may begin to satisfy her thirst for learning, and therefore stop her being quite so frustrated.

I'm sorry, I'm not explaining myself very well tonight. Not very succinct.

I just think if she has the chance to play with water, and sand, and construction toys, building, and throwing things and physical play. SOMEONE HELP ME OUT WITH WHAT I"M TRYING TO SAY!!!!

Just allow her as many outlets as possible, and that may involve toys and things which are designed for children above her actual age.

Sorry if I sounded harsh, but I have seen so many friends made miserable by well meaning mums who just can't help giving them too much advice and expecting them to bring up their children in a different way than they want to.
If you read what Chianna'snanna says it's not that her daughter has "asked" her to go online, but that she is doing it on her daughter's behalf. Not quite the same thing.

Hello chiannasnanna I dont mean to offend you but children all develop at a different pace. My ds1 was also toilet trained in one day (no potty dp just had to show him the once) he was also prem but he never crawled and walked at 2yo. He is 10 now and I wouldnt say he is gifted. My ds3 who is 2 understands every word yet he speaks double dutch, he walked at 10 months. He would also abseil down his cot at 10 months. He also likes to work the mechanisms of objects but he could not tell you or point to something red as he does not understand colours.

All children are intelligent in their own individual way and they all develop at different times. I think your granddaughter is developing normally. I agree with other posters that your daughter would benefit from mumsnet.
Every child is special and gifted in their own way and I think she is lucky to have a nanna like you. You are obviously proud of her.

P.S Ideas for sleep problems. Have you asked about melatonin for the sleep problem from the G.P? Also cut out her daytime naps?

I tend to agree with most of what has been said here. Tantrums because of frustration at not beng understood are very common- they're a daily occurrence in this house. Sometimes ds1 will scream the place down if I say he can't have something- usually becuase he thinks that I haven't understood him. If can I make him se that I have understood, but he's not getting it then he calms down.

He also likes to take examine toys from all angles and look at mechanisms, I think some children are just like that.

DS1 goes thorugh pahses when he will wake for several hours each night for a few weeks at a time. He has been taught to stay in his room (he went in a bed before he was 2- and learned that then). He usually just plays, reads books or sings to himself.

I woudn't really go down the route of testing a 2 year old. IQ tests aren't reliable at that age anyway- other than to pick up obvious learning difficulties. And it wouldn't really help anway- the best thing is to provide lots of different activities. It's best not to put "expectations" on a young child. Just enjoy her.

Ah JimJams, yes that sums it all up doesn't it?

"Just enjoy her"

Well said.

No words of wisdom on the intelligence levels, but her sleep pattern sounds much like my ds. 22 mths and has still to sleep right through a night!!
Hope you find some answers.

What can I say!!, I am overwhelmed with your immense knowledge and support, thank you.

So many thought and suggestions, I am delighted that many of you understand, and also heartining to know many of you have personal experience of our concerns.

I have to put this one right though, I know my daughter is a wonderful mother, she has been a carer of children and young people with special needs all her working life, I would not be able to do the type of work she has done, I have and always have had the utmost respect for her.

As for ?keeping my nose out?, well that might be how it seems, but I can assure you that is not the case, and I am sorry Sofia that your relatives have impacted on the way you perceive others. Also I did think your comment was tainted with regard to me going on line ?on behalf? of my daughter, I did take the time to look up ?behalf? just to be sure, and I means ?As the agent of someone; usually expressed as "on behalf of" , so it is actually the same thing.

The reason for my concern as a mother is obvious, it is because I care, but I do know the difference between interference and support. I am a Counselling Therapist and radio ?Agony Aunt?, so I am used to dealing with and helping to resole emotional problems, but sometimes being a mother overrides all of that.

My daughter suffered severe postnatal depression to the point of being offered in patient treatment, but she did not want to leave her baby. When Chianna was 5 months old Becky was rushed into hospital with a perforated Gall Bladder that had fused to her Liver. I went and looked after Chianna and it was then that I realised just how ?bad? bad was for Becky.

I kept a regular appointment that Becky had made with her G.P. for Chianna when he said that Becky always tries to put on a brave face, in other words was not asking for help. I then asked the Doctor if he had ever tried to feed a baby with a tongue tie, he admitted no, I also suggested he might like to walk a day in her shoes.

It was then that he thought it might be a good opportunity to get Chianna seen at the hospital as well. She was seen within the hour and they then discovered the reflex problem and after treatment the projectile vomiting eased and she was able to take 2 ounces of formula at a time.

I would love for Becky to have access to the Internet, but it is not possible, she can only get to me every other week, but I will suggest the library to her.
My original posting was not for me to ?crow? about my g/d?s intelligence, more a plea for help as how to channel her and if handled differently would relieve my daughter of what is a very demanding role. I know all parenting is demanding, but Becky?s health and 2 years of sleep deprivation really have taken it our of her. I can see that I might sound like I am a ?pushy? mum, but I have to be supportive to Becky, it has been a difficult 2 years, and I know it WILL get better. When I am with them I do enjoy every moment, they are both very precious to me.
After all I was and am a mother first, but with the love and concern of a grandmother.

What can I say!!, I am overwhelmed with your immense knowledge and support, thank you.

So many thought and suggestions, I am delighted that many of you understand, and also heartining to know many of you have personal experience of our concerns.

I have to put this one right though, I know my daughter is a wonderful mother, she has been a carer of children and young people with special needs all her working life, I would not be able to do the type of work she has done, I have and always have had the utmost respect for her.

As for ?keeping my nose out?, well that might be how it seems, but I can assure you that is not the case, and I am sorry Sofia that your relatives have impacted on the way you perceive others. Also I did think your comment was tainted with regard to me going on line ?on behalf? of my daughter, I did take the time to look up ?behalf? just to be sure, and I means ?As the agent of someone; usually expressed as "on behalf of" , so it is actually the same thing.

The reason for my concern as a mother is obvious, it is because I care, but I do know the difference between interference and support. I am a Counselling Therapist and radio ?Agony Aunt?, so I am used to dealing with and helping to resole emotional problems, but sometimes being a mother overrides all of that.

My daughter suffered severe postnatal depression to the point of being offered in patient treatment, but she did not want to leave her baby. When Chianna was 5 months old Becky was rushed into hospital with a perforated Gall Bladder that had fused to her Liver. I went and looked after Chianna and it was then that I realised just how ?bad? bad was for Becky.

I kept a regular appointment that Becky had made with her G.P. for Chianna when he said that Becky always tries to put on a brave face, in other words was not asking for help. I then asked the Doctor if he had ever tried to feed a baby with a tongue tie, he admitted no, I also suggested he might like to walk a day in her shoes.

It was then that he thought it might be a good opportunity to get Chianna seen at the hospital as well. She was seen within the hour and they then discovered the reflex problem and after treatment the projectile vomiting eased and she was able to take 2 ounces of formula at a time.

I would love for Becky to have access to the Internet, but it is not possible, she can only get to me every other week, but I will suggest the library to her.
My original posting was not for me to ?crow? about my g/d?s intelligence, more a plea for help as how to channel her and if handled differently would relieve my daughter of what is a very demanding role. I know all parenting is demanding, but Becky?s health and 2 years of sleep deprivation really have taken it our of her. I can see that I might sound like I am a ?pushy? mum, but I have to be supportive to Becky, it has been a difficult 2 years, and I know it WILL get better. When I am with them I do enjoy every moment, they are both very precious to me.
After all I was and am a mother first, but with the love and concern of a grandmother.

Sorry, I must of hit the 'post' message twice... although I thought I was only previewing it first!!

ChiannasNanna ... I am not really good on this sort of advice because I am constantly questioning my own parenting skills and so never feel up to helping others if you know what I mean.
I just wanted to say first of all that you sound like a lovely mother/grandmother and when I read your initial post I never once thought that you sounded pushy ... it made me miss my own mum more than ever (she is in the UK ... I am in NZ) I was then quite shocked at the way that others told you to keep your nose out ... BIG SLAP ON THE WRISTS THOSE MUMSNETTERS ... NOT FAIR!!!!
Anyway ... for what it's worth ... I do agree with those that said that testing tiny children can backfire. I once taught a child whose mother was horrified that he scored an average mark in a school test as she was convinced he was gifted ... he was v. bright but not gifted and she struggled with believing that.
Your daughter is obviously having a bad time at the moment and I identify with her on the lack of sleep front ... I can't really help on that as I am constantly trying all sorts of things to get my son to sleep all night. All I can say is that lately (he is 3 and a half) things have improved and I am beginning to think it might be to do with his age and he is finally 'getting it'!
Does Chianna go to any kind of nursery or anything? It might be worth her going somewhere (Montessori or something) one day a week so that a) she can be channeled a bit more and b) your daughter can have a break ...
About the eating ... like someone else said ... she will not starve herself ... if she is healthy and the gp is not worried about her weight then she is obviously eating enough for her.
Hope some of this rambling helps a bit ... hope things get better for your daughter ... and keep posting on mumsnet ....
Take care ... love Ghosty ...

I'm another who thinks you sound like a wonderful mum and gran! As you'll have seen by now, there are lots of us with non-eating and non-sleeping children, and probably there are as many solutions as there are parents.

I have a 7 yr old dd who has proved a lot harder to handle than my other three children. I guess I've learnt that you have to decide what is important to you and also that being consistent is vital. For example, is it more important to have a child sleep in its own bed or for the parent to have a full night's sleep by having the child sleep with them? It's a personal decision, there's no right or wrong answer. But, as Scummy says, you have to be convinced about your decision and stick to it. Lots of children like consistency, it makes them feel secure. My dd eats much better when she knows that her choice is to eat what is front of her or not at all. We'd got into a spiral of offering her one thing after another, all of which were rejected, until one day it was pointed out to me that dd was having a high old time, watching us dance to her tune! (I'm not a total monster, I try to give her things she likes, within reason!) We also cut out all snacks and that helped enormously.

Maybe something like Two's Clubs, swimming and baby gymnastics would help channel her energy. As long as she is well supervised, then she can explore and dismantle things at home, if that is enjoyable for her. Again, I think you have to decide what is important and what isn't. Maybe you don't want her taking the stereo to pieces but otoh, it may not matter if she wants to empty out the drawer full of kitchen gadgets, for instance.

Good luck, and do let us know how she gets on - Chianna sounds lovely!

message withdrawn

message withdrawn

It strikes me straight away that Chianna is probably having these tantrums and extreme behaviour BECAUSE of her lack of sleep.

After months of bad behaviour from my 2 year old I increased his sleep in the day (as he would not sleep longer at night~) and this really helped. He is much happier and less likely to 'lose it' when he gets frustrated. Yes its a fight getting them to go to bed, but its amazing how tired they are, without us knowing.

So do get your daughter to put Chianna in bed in the day, and get some serious sleep training in, I'm sure this is the root of her extreme behaviour.

Like others on this site Jo I would not label your grandaughter at this age as gifted, tempting as it is for any mother/grandmother! Different skills are obviously developing at different rates. I think learning to sleep is a skill just as important as doing up their shoelaces!!

Sorry, I must of hit the 'post' message twice... although I thought I was only previewing it first!!