I'm at the end of my tether, dd's bedtimes are just getting worse and worse and I feel such a failure

[northender]

I'm sobbing into the keyboard, I really am at my wits end. dd is 4 and has only recently started to sleep through consistently (prior to that she would wake in the night at least a couple of times a week). Bedtime though is another matter entirely. Tonight I almost lost it with her and have frightened myself. She is strong willed and we have to deal with her a bit differently because of that (trying to avoid continual confrontation). We have always been consistent with bedtime ie wind down, bath, story, bed. Our problems now start at wind down time when she refuses to do anything she's asked and then goes on to do exactly the opposite. Everything then escalates. I managed to defuse things successfully tonight, get her into bed and read the story. The calm didn't last, she wouldn't stay in bed, hit me, tried to bite me and I lost the plot. dh is upstairs at the moment and all is quiet. We can't carry on like this, it's getting worse and I have no idea what to do to help her.

Have you tried a visual system like a chart leading to a reward after a few nights? Maybe it would help if she could see the effect of her anger afterwards in terms of a missed chance to work towards the reward? If she regretted losing the plot when she saw the chart in the morning, it might affect her behaviour the following night. Maybe?

jellie she does have a blackout blind although quite a bit of light still comes in at the sides. She does sleep through and wakes any time between 6 and 7. We have put her bedtime later at the health visitors suggestion because of the problems we were having then but the problems seem different now (2 months later) and much harder to cope with.

we went through this when ds turned 4..uo till then he was really good at going to bed

I asked him one day why he didnt want to go to bed.. answer i'm lonely in my bed..

Ok what would help??? what about some music. We got a portable cd player and put classical music for babies on it. It worked wonders..

northender that 'angry zone' is when you walk out of the room. tell her it isn't on.

i don't think that was good advice, to make the bedtime later. having someone who wakes up at 6am and expects everyone else to is not brilliant, esp at weekends, but he does stay asleep.

dineysor, yes I realise it's not acceptable for her to bite but again we've been consistent with her with regard to that and although her tempers are not as often as they were, they do still happen. I feel so out of my depth. She is the most beautiful, sweet, helpful, bright girl for 99% of the time but you can almost see a switch flick and her mood changes in an instant.
scaredoflove I like the sound of those ideas.

frasersmummy I have thought of that but haven't done it because I don't want to make her need music to get to sleep iyswim but I do think it would help her.

Although I do keep saying we're consistent with her, I'm sure there are times that we're not as good as we think we are. I think we probably need to make more of an effort. The trouble is now that she finishes nursery this week and will be having some sleepovers with my parents and then we've got 2 weeks hols at the end of August so not a very easy time to be consistent.

I think I'll re-read the thread tomorrow and come up with a strategy to try and really stick to it. So much helpful advice has been offered, thank you all. I'd be grateful for any more advice, tips etc and I will let you know how we get on (and post asking for moral support at times too)

HVs aren't always right, to me it sounds like overtiredness so that means setting an earlier bedtime would be wiser. just a suggestion to make life easier!

I do really think that her bedtime should be earlier rather than later - did the HV explain why she thought a later bedtime would work? What you describe sounds to me just how ds gets if he is overtired - in fact, his bedtime has got earlier over the last 12 mths for some reason but bedtimes are much calmer now. Bizarrely although we have always had blackout blinds, when he went through his last "blip" of not wanting to be in bed, he said that it was lonely being in there on his own - we now leave one of those really low wattage nightlights on in his room and that seems to have worked.

We have the same problem as fishie though - ds is wide awake at 6.30am and raring to go (on balance would rather have a calmer evening and early morning that the other way around though)

Another thought - will be interesting to see how she acts with staying over at grandparents - the change might be enough to break the cycle if she is OK with them (ds often used to play up with me but not with dh. Also, I know that this sounds easier than it is but you really need to try and keep you cool and not let her see you lose it - if she is overtired she will not be in control of her emotions/actions and you need to be the one who stays in control. the hiting/biting really needs to be stopped too - she needs to understand that behaviour like that has consequences - take away a toy for example, or restrict TV viewing.

jb we have used a nightlight alongside the blackout blindfor the last month or so and she sleeps through now since we've done that. Previously we had just stuck rigidly to the keep it as dark as possible idea. We will definitely try moving the bedtime, possibly the cd player idea (although she is fond of heavy rock) and I like scaredoflove's ideas for a bit of bargaining on the routine because control is an issue ie she needs to feel she has some decisions to make.

How about some story CD's rather than music?

(btw, I just knew from your nickname whereabouts you lived )

Am still not typing fast enough! The anger issue is a whole separate topic in a way but really worries me. We have used time out, taking a toy away, losing pocket money at different points but the trouble is you rarely get the chance to give warnings as she flares up so quickly and, as I say, once she is in that zone you can't reason at all. It does happen less often now, maybe and age thing? What I can say confidently is that she hasn't ever been allowed to get away with it but we're struggling on how to make a lasting change in her behaviour.

Thanks ceebee, 'tis a bit obvious to some! The same hv recommended less stories (1) as too many stories could over stmulate her. In dd's case I think I probably agree as she has a wonderful, but wild at times, imagination. S'pose it may depend on the stories?

After story and cuddles do not speak or make eye contact, but repeatedly put her back into bed. Do not respond to anything she does. It can take an age for this to work, but it does...eventually. My DD did not sleep through the night until she was 3.5 and my DS who is autistic has real trouble settling himself, so I have survived on v little sleep for the last 5 years

Thanks ff, definitely agree about the control thing.
Did I mention how bloody lovely you all are and how much I love mumsnet?
Am feeling much more positive now.

At 4 yrs old children often get scared of 'monsters' so be careful of what she is watching on tv in the day, particularly as she has older siblings.

Also is she getting outside to run about every day? I know it's dreary but a good hour trip to the park/swimming etc at some point in the day to physically tire them out is helpful.

What works with our dd - also 4 is a VERY structured bedtime routine. ie 5pm dinner, 5.30 bath, 6pm snuggle on sofa and (gentle) dvd, 6.30pm stories in bed (a couple), and a chat with mum or dad. 6.50/7pm lights out - I have to check for monsters then kiss and night night etc. She usually shouts a couple of times for me to come back in as she can't sleep but then I am stern and not chatty. Or her dad goes up and is cross. Generally off to sleep by 7.15 and I am pouring my wine . I also advocate putting a latch on the door. If she knows she can get out and cause havoc she will.

The biting thing is different though, I think this needs absolute zero tolerance. Do what other posters suggest. Tell her off for doing it and WALK AWAY. Do not engage with her at all - put her in another room if necessary. 4 yr olds have developed the 'guilt' gene by then so she should hopefully get the message that biting/hitting etc is not on. EVER.

Good luck. They can be very trying.

You could have been describing my DD this time last year. She was 4 and a half and turned into a monster at bedtime, wouldn't stay in her room, biting kicking and fighting you if you tried to put her back in the room.
I found that holding the door or putting a latch on made it worse as she would trash her room and if she woke in the night she would be up and down checking that she could still open the door (had always slept with the door closed prior to this). I tried talking, negotiating, reward charts, returning her to bed without comment, the lot, with no success.
In the end I was completely at my wits end and started confiscating teddies/toys from her room every time she messed around.
The second night of this was so bad I took everything, she was up and down all night, until I had taken the teddy she always sleeps with and finally at 5am, the duvet and pillow. After this I think she realised that I meant business and the next night when she got up, as soon as I had closed the door, I only had to say "if you get up again I'll start taking things" (she only had 1 teddy left by now) and we heard no more until morning. Over the next few nights she earned back all her stuff by going to bed nicely and staying in bed and from then on has been her usual self, bed at 7, not a peep till morning.
When it was all over she was telling my Mum that she used to be naughty in the night but she wasn't any more. When Mum said "why did you want to do that?" she said "because I wanted the night to be shorter! We tell her now that the best way to make the time go quicker is to sleep!!
Sorry for rambling on, I just wanted you to know that even though it is hell at the time, it does get better, it's working out how to get through to them that's the hardest thing I think.

I can really recommend this book. I got it out from the library and it really helped me to understand my dd's personality, and why she behaves in the way she does.

Thanks Claudia and spottydog. spotty, what you've described is so similar though it is a bedtime thing now and not a through night problem any more. I've seen the book mentioned on here before so will order it from the library today.

Unfortunately I missed seeing her this morning as she was still asleep when I went to work at 8 o clock (so clearly very tired last night). Apparently she told dh she had wanted to see me to tell me how well she went to sleep in the end last night . Will start our new approach tonight.

dd2 has always been a bad sleeper, then had phases of being good, then crap again

she is also 4, 5 next month

recently she was waking me up up to 5 times a night and I ended up sleeping with her most nights in the spare room

we decided enough was enough and spoke to her one morning and said the "silly sleeper dd2" was going in the bin and the "princess sleeper dd2" was coming out instead. Made pics of both in the day then put one in the bin and one on the wall

at bedtime - lots of faffing - then in the night awful screeching for an hour when she realised that I was not sleeping with her

miserable house for 3 days [understatement]

however she now sleeps right through as she is a "princess"

vomit away but it worked

she sounds similar to your dd, has tantrums that have to be seen. I walk away and tell her mummy is not listening to it, then go back for a cuddle

most of the time she does not know why she gets so cross and cries so I think a big thing of it is Being Four

OO haven't seen you around for ages but I'm sure I remember a thread I think you may have started about a child of similar age (and behaviour) to dd which stuck a chord with me at the time.

I emigrated so have been a tad busy

am back on the internet as it is now cold so I am not in the garden

dd2 has always been a pain in the arse, sleep wise, dd1 was great so it was a major shock to the system

I tried leaving her, shouting, then both, then lying with her....you name it, I tried it

some children just do not sleep imo!

try the project thing and/or bribes

she is also a lovely lovely girl 99.9% of the time but v feisty when crossed

I can see a tantrum coming now and get the whooooaaaaa feeling of dread in my stomach

How is life down under (have I got that right?)? I remember some pre emigration threads. I know exactly what you mean, ds has always been a dream so this is such a shock to the system. dh insists she takes after me