how do your punish your 4 or 5 year old?!

[traceface]

My dd1 has just turned 5. For a while she's been quite frustrating (taking AGES to do anything, needing to be asked numerous times before she'll do as she's told, being a drama queen about everything!). It seems to be getting worse and I feel like I have less and less control over her. Her teacher says she's really good and polite at school so I think it's just for my benefit (and DH). We're doing a sticker chart for her behaviour but she's not that bothered of she gets lots of 'unhappy' stickers. We've used naughty corner for years but now it seems to have no effect - she goes there, sits and sings to herself, says sorry then will happily repeat whatever got her there in the first place! She gets sent to her room to calm down which is good because it gives us space from each other, but is more a way of diffusing a situation than punishing her. We don't smack and e don't really like to raise our voices too much but don't know how to punish her. She doesn't get pocket money so we can't take that away, we've tried banning TV/ colouring/ toys but she's not really bothered because she's got such an imagination she would sit in an empty room and amuse herself! Does anyone have any punishment ideas? Thank you

Found your thread RenagadeMum

thank you. I'll try to check out some other threads. Thanks fuzzyduck and Renagade for that. I'm off to bed now as my head is banging and my dd2 will no doubt wake for milk very soon...
back tomorrow to glean more advice!
Thanks

Hurrah cherry! I am such a luddite. And after all that I do think that white jeans will be fine!

Hello.

My god it has taken ages to type this so apologise in advance for cross posts.

Been though very much the same thing with my 4.5 DD recently, and culminated in a couple of very shouty days which I hate, and doesnt work anyway with her.

I already had a sticker chart to help with procrastinating at bedtime when none of us are at our best but I didnt want to have to hand out stickers chart for every piece of the day where she was being a pain.

She also then floored me by saying, in response to me telling her if she didnt do X that she would lose Y (TV I think) 'I dont really care about that actually mummy'. (DH response was 'Well you've taken smacking off the table I have nothing to add..')

Anyway, I am wittering, in the end I sat down with sensible friend and talked it through and realised I just hadnt found the right incentive for good behaviour and I didnt have a standard response for bad.

I bought a huge job lot of Go-Gos on ebay (very motivating as older friend has them) and now have divided day into 4 sections. If she behaves she gets a tick , 6 ticks she gets a go-go, (extra ticks if she does something fab). Bascially if she is being good she can get a go-go every day and a half. If she ends up on the naughty step she gets a cross, another time on the step no TV, another time no tv no computer, a third time add no music. We havent ever got to a fourth time, I think my head would fall off with effort of not biting something.

To be honest at the moment when she starts being a pain she really seems to enjoy the confrontation and gets her na-ne-na-na face on and stomps dramatically up the stairs which pushes all my buttons for some reason. If I can hold it together blanking the low level stuff when she is spoiling for a fight and then just sending her to her room when she tries to pick a fight works much better than a lack of Tv etc- she REALLY hates being ignored, and it reduces my blood pressure.

So things are better here. She does seem to go in phases anyway, but I think the go-go thing helps us both focus on positive stuff and reminding myself how effective not rising to her is, has helped me simmer down.

My life however does now involve lots of moving furniture to retrieve odd little plastic men on as daily basis.. chose yee wisely your reward system for verily it may blocketh the hoover...

Something else that helps us if she is just not listening is (all done calmly, but possibly by no.3 an air of 'I mean business icy calm' is useful...)

no1 DD1 can you put your shoes on please?

no2 DD1, Second time I'm asking you, can you put your shoes on please?

no3. DD1. This is the THIRD time I am asking you to put your shoes on, and the last time I will ask you nicely. Put your shoes on. Please.

I think maybe 50% of the problems disappear if you manage your expectations better and make them more appropriate to the child's development. And to basic human nature!

Re doing something the first time of asking; I think it's just bad psychology to expect a child to jump to it like a little soldier. You might need to make subtle changes - rather than suddenly "dd can you put your shoes on" you could try "DD in a minute we need to go out. You will need your shoes. Where are they?" and go from there. It's just an example. It's a conversation rather than just expecting them to jump to it.

Also, don't fall too much for the line from the teachers regarding making the kids practice dressing on their own. It's not your job to make the teachers life nice and easy. Sometimes, IMHO, it is worth avoiding the power struggle at home and letting the child learn in their new environment. Often they take instruction better from teacher than from mum and there is not that added dimension of "but mummy you do this for me"....

Sometimes with kids you don't need to practice - sometimes they just do stuff when they need to!

I do that too - ask once, repeat, then say 'last time or I'll get cross'. Which does work. But it is wearing, isn't it!!

Going back to a much earlier comment I have to say that saying to a child "you make me feel sad in my tummy" is not something I think is that great. To me it's emotional blackmail and possibly confusing for a child and in fact is an alternative form of punishment! It's also a lie, it would be more honest to say "I'm really starting to feel annoyed". I also think young children's empathic intelligence still has quite a long way to go, but I just wouldn't want to burden a child with my supposed unhappiness just because they weren't doing what I wanted. In some cases, obviously it is approprate to explain that what they have done has caused hurt in teaching them to interact well with others.

I have some sweets in a jar which they get occasionally but if I need them to do something or stop doing something quickly, I'll warn them they'll have one thrown in the bin and then if they don't it goes in. It works well and it's only a very small thing to lose.

just say YOURE GROUNDED no playing out its the only one that works for me .they cry they moan they plead and if i see that stage through they start being nice and tiding up just so they can go out again

Re getting changed for PE it really is something kids need to learn to do quickly, it's not to make a teacher's life easier (god forbid) it's to make the most of a short PE slot on a packed timetable.

wonderingwondering - UP is a way of life, not any kind of quick fix. It's very long term. The 'say remind make it happen' thing is not part of UP (tho it's not necessarily incompatible with it) - UP doesn't provide 'techniques' of this kind.

You really have to read it. It is a huge relief for anyone who has never really felt comfortable with naughty steps, shouting etc.

'Natural consequences' are def not UP, for the reasons thisisyesterday gave.

DD1 (5.5y) was possessed by the devil this time last year. Then I read Alfie Kohn. Last week she was awarded the school's Kindness Cup

Slowreading progress "Also, don't fall too much for the line from the teachers regarding making the kids practice dressing on their own. It's not your job to make the teachers life nice and easy. Sometimes, IMHO, it is worth avoiding the power struggle at home and letting the child learn in their new environment."

Oooooh, what if all parents did that???? How long would it take to get a Reception class changed for PE? Sorry, but disagree with you, don't think Reception teachers should be having to do this as standard potentially for every child.

But children don't go to school every day. There are plenty of occasions on non-school days for them to get dressed by themselves so does it really matter if you help a young child occasionally on a school day in order to get out of the door on time?

If I am dragging DS (age 6) out of bed on a school day, I still dress him because I know that he is tired and it is expecting a lot of him to be focussed enough to get himself dressed on time. If he wakes up of his own accord, he knows he has to do it by himself.

Unconditional parenting would not work for us.

My friends swear by this approach and lets just say their childrens behaviour leaves a lot to be desired.

We use a sticker chart and reward good behaviour with a book or an outing.

I do "punish" because it is effective for ds. If he has three sad faces on his chart we cancel a playdate or he loses pocket money. It seems to work for us.

Ihavenosecrets - in what way do you mean their behaviour isn't great? Are the aggressive, or disrespectful? Or a bit wild? Or do they not share? I'd be interested in which less attractive traits you think UP can encourage!

In asking that, I'm thinking that if a child's behaviour veers towards eg tantrums, UP may work better than if their behaviour veers towards, say, sulking and hitting.

Well I can see some traits in DS that other people might think 'leave a lot to be desired'.

Eg He always asks 'why?' when told not to do something. (And he's well past the why? why? stage IYSWIM). He doesn't mean to be rude, he's just used to being given a good reason to do things other people's way.

He also likes to share his POV with everyone. He has yet to have the social skills to distinguish when it might not be appropriate.

I don't think he does this at school, at least no mention of it from the teachers.

I'm not saying that UP encourages poor behaviour it just appears from my limited experience that some children who don't receive punishments (I really hate that word but can't think of another one) seem to repeat poor behaviour.

Example, I was in the park with a group of friends and the children ran out of the park into the car park (they had been warned not to). The other children in the group were told that it was a dangerous thing to do and that was that. I take a firmer stance (which I know is not popular with everyone) and immediately told ds that we were leaving. The following week the other children ran out again, ds didn't because he knew that our trip to the park would be cut short if he did!

Another example, my friends dd slapped her around the face because she couldn't have an ice cream and yet she was still allowed a playdate! Ds wouldn't hit me but if he did he would be heading straight home!

I also discuss the consequences with ds but I do think if the child is old enough to understand that their behaviour is wrong they should have a sanction as well.

At work if you don't stick to the rules you are disciplined. If you perform exceptionally well you are rewarded, I once received a weekend for two to Amerstdam. I can't understand why reward and punishment is taboo (sp?) for children.

Othersideofthechannel. I wouldn't consider that your ds's behaviour "leaves a lot to be desired". I think it is great when children ask questions.

bu ihavenosecrets. it could be said that your son merely complies because he is scared of what will happen.

he isn't behaving well because he wants to, or because it's the right thing to do. you have simply taught him that unless he does what you want a bad thing will happen to him.

the point of UP is to think long term. not "how can I make my child do what I want" but "what do I want my child to learn from this" and also, what kind of person will they turn into by being treated this way.

work and stuff like that is irrelevant. rewards and sanctions have been shown to reduce motivation and outcome in both school and the workplace.

it isn't my job to bring my child up to fit into a society like that. it's my job to bring up a happy child who WANTS to behave well and recognises WHY he ought to sometimes do things a certain way.
and most importantly to question WHY we do thigns the way we do instead of automatically complying because that's what he has been taught to do

UP is very popular on MN, Ihavenosecrets. It's way too much principles and rather devoid of useful tools for me, but I guess it works well for some people. I just don't have the patience of a saint TIME knack of how it can work in practice, I guess.

I hate threads like these. Just reading them my head gets buffetted around by competing and incompatible bits of advice and I end up feeling dizzy and like a Failure no matter what I do.

there's no need for anyone to feel like a failure.

i would hope that everyone on here is bringing their children up in a way that they like, and that makes them and their children happy and that they feel good about.

and that's all that matters. if you don't feel happy with how you're parenting your kids then do something about it.
if you do then don't feel bad cos other people do things differently!

Well its probably a bit of both. After ds has behaved poorly we discuss why he did it and what the consequences are, if he didn't understand I wouldn't punish him, you can't punish someone if they don't know any better!

I am bringing up a happy well adjusted child. Ds's school report stated that hhe he "has a a sunny and cheerful nature and he is a delight to have in the class" It doesn't sound like I am doing too much damage.

We all do things differently. I'm doing the best for my child. If I had read the UP book before I had children I would have thought it was great, it sounds great in theory but in the real world you have to work out what works best for you and your family.

When I was looking after my friends ds recently he refused to wear a seatbelt so I couldn't drive him home. He told me that he ddoesn't have to listen to adults. I am sorry but that is not the way that I want to bring my child up!

themildmanneredjanito... I didn't mean to misquote you and I'm sure you didn't mean to misquote me either
But even so I wouldn't personally use it to address a child being rude. I don't think a child of that age is intending to make you feel sad when they are rude, rather trying to get a reaction or venting frustrations and I'd rather leave it on the level of you will lose out on something if you do that again rather than bring my emotional well being into it. But each to their own!