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3 year old completely avoids speaking when being disciplined

37 replies

Pic · 15/05/2009 04:10

The title sounds a little harsh, I know, but I was just being succint. Okay, a more descriptive version...

I'm asking about my nephew, who is 3 years 5 months. I've been googling all over the place and got nothing so far because my search isn't specific enough, but it's a bit complicated to describe...

Basically, there are a lot of problems with his behaviour but what is really troubling his mum and I at the moment [I spend a lot of time with my niece & nephews, will 'parent' when needed] is his 'tuning out'.

When he's happy, he'll make eye contact no problem, will converse, will answer questions with sentences. However, as soon as he thinks he's being told off [even with a simple, "Did you _ ?" question, in a completely non-judgemental tone of voice, he switches off. You can see him literally glazing over. He will drop his head, turn it away or even close his eyes to stop from looking at you.

That drives his mum mad, but I can cope with it because I figure if it makes it easier for him not to look at me, fine. But he seems completely unable to answer simple questions when in this mode, and we can't work out if he's choosing not to answer or literally cannot hear/understand the question [because he has tuned out, out of...fear? Confusion?].

For example, today he told me he'd finished his dinner and I asked him if he'd eaten any of his chips. He said no. I asked him if he could try one. I could see him literally just falling into a trance. He just switches off from the world. I tried to wait it out figuring he might eventually try to offer something [my fuse is a lot longer than his mom's and she'll usually send him to bed soon after, but I wanted to see if he'd do anything else when given the time].

After a couple of minutes [and having to move into the kitchen away from the distractions of his siblings] I asked him what I'd asked him to do. He stared blankly at me for a few seconds then away again. I waited a bit then asked the question again, adding that if he couldn't remember or didn't know, that was okay, he just had to say so. Nothing.

His mom then got involved and said to him, "When an adult asks you to do something, you do it." [Well, that was the cut down version.] He looked at her [because she'd told him to] and sort of nodded, but I asked immediately after, "What did mummy just say to you?"

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I repeated the phrase, then asked the question. Nothing. "I am going to say it once more, and I want you to tell me what I said." I did. "I am going to count to three, and if you can't tell me, you'll go to bed. One, two-" "Can't remember." [The first thing he's said in about five loooong minutes, remember.] "Okay, that's fine. We'll do it one word at a time. You say it after me. When." Blank stare. "I'm going to count to three, and if you can't say it when I get to three, you'll go to bed. When. One-" I got to three. He went to bed. Immediately we started to go, he burst into whining.

He's also being toilet trained at the moment [ugh, don't ask] and was sitting on the toilet earlier when his mom went in and found the floor wet. She told him that wee goes in the toilet, he knows that and accidents are okay but he'd been in the toilet for a good five minutes before he actually sat on it, so that was not an accident. His sister then handed me the new toy I put in there today which is supposed to be full of water...except it wasn't. I pointed this out and his mom apologised to him, and reminded him that just because she's mommy doesn't mean that's always right, and he can tell her when she's in the wrong. He sat with his head down the entire time.

[Not wanting to tell mommy when she's wrong definitely isn't an issue of mommy getting angry at that because his older brothers point that out all the time, and she apologises and concedes when she forgot something or contradicted herself or whatever. The four year old also corrected nursery teachers a year ago. So this isn't something he's learned is a bad idea, but something he's choosing not to do.]

We've recently been trying to teach him to ask for things rather than demand them, too. Most requests go, "Me want biscuit mom." [His speech was quite delayed; you could have entire nonverbal conversations with him as a two year old but he only started speaking when he turned three. He understood tons though - seems like he understood more then than he does now.] The amount of times we've said recently, "What do you say if you want something?"... He remembers, "Please," and we agree that's right but when you ask what else or what the question is he'll either say nothing or throw in 'mom' or 'thank you'. Even getting his brother to join in - "What would you say if you wanted a biscuit, Conner?" "Can I have a biscuit please?" - only works half the time. It's like getting blood out of a stone.

I am totally prepared to repeat this a thousand times a day if that's what he NEEDS, but we can't figure out if he's doing it because he likes the attention and/or thinks it's funny to get us to repeat ourselves. If he literally cannot understand the information [and it's not a case of retention - this is repeating a word RIGHT AFTER you've said it] then that's something we need to get help with, because it sounds like something more serious. If it's a case of he can't be arsed to say anything then he'll just have to make that choice and deal with the consequences.

I did wonder today if it was that he just finds it easier to let an adult choose for him than to make the choice himself, even if the consequence is bad. Today after dinner I know he understood the question because as soon as I counted the first time he jumped in with, "Can't remember," so he clearly saw that as a way out, which I'd given him a minute or so before. He avoided being sent to bed. But with one word at a time, he obviously can't use that, so he chose to say nothing and ended up in bed.

I am aware of the phenomenon of selective hearing [his older brother was excellent at it until recently when he started to discover that if he couldn't make the choice, we would make it for him] but the way he just literally switches off seems to be so much more drastic. He isn't being shouted at, he's being asked questions, sometimes as simple as yes/no, he's not being asked to make eye contact, and he just can't or won't respond, until you say, "Okay, /consequence/," and then it's, "No, NO!" and the whining.

Sorry, that was incredibly long and probably over-detailed but I just wanted to give a few examples. Has anyone experienced this sort of extreme thing before, and what did you do about it? Do we carry on with standard discipline [time out, losing treats, etc] and hope it kicks in, repeating ourselves ad nauseum, or does he really have trouble focusing for whatever reason that we need to get help with?

OP posts:
Robespierre · 15/05/2009 06:26

I just wonder whether you and his mum haven't become so anxious about this that you are seriously overloading him with words, requests, demands for him to speak, threats of 'discipline' if he doesn't say the right thing. This sort of overload could easily make him 'blank out'.

This paragraph in particular concerned me:

His mom then got involved and said to him, "When an adult asks you to do something, you do it." [Well, that was the cut down version.] He looked at her [because she'd told him to] and sort of nodded, but I asked immediately after, "What did mummy just say to you?"

I repeated the phrase, then asked the question. Nothing. "I am going to say it once more, and I want you to tell me what I said." I did. "I am going to count to three, and if you can't tell me, you'll go to bed. One, two-" "Can't remember." [The first thing he's said in about five loooong minutes, remember.] "Okay, that's fine. We'll do it one word at a time. You say it after me. When." Blank stare. "I'm going to count to three, and if you can't say it when I get to three, you'll go to bed. When. One-" I got to three. He went to bed. Immediately we started to go, he burst into whining.

Yours is about the longest post I@ve seen on MN. You are stressed out about your nephew and responding with a warehouse of words. Even if there is a pre-existing problem that has caused you to get so stressed about this, I still think you might accidentally be making it worse.

I could have read everything utterly wrong, of course. But my guess is that you should back off, quite a lot. Give him time and space to process things in his own way.

flamingobingo · 15/05/2009 06:55

I agree with Robespierre, but I think I would go so far as to say 'leave him alone', poor boy! Stop badgering him. He's only 3.5 and every child is different. You don't need to make him say something politely in order to let him have things, just remind him once each time and, in time, he'll get there. When it comes to choices, offer him a choice, and if he ignores you, just say 'ok, I'll give you this one'. Or even offer him the chance to choose by saying something like 'let me know if you want to choose today, won't you? Otherwise I'm going to give you this'. Then he doesn't have to respond if he doesn't want to.

And give him lots and lots of cuddles. I really feel this is a panacea - lots of children do random things because they're testing their parents' unconditional love for them. There's nothing rewarding in giving a cuddle when your explaining that something's not on to a child - just reassuring that even though they've done something not pleasant, you still love them.

I think you need to remind yourselves that just because he's not learning something right now doesn't mean he's not going to learn it at all.

Oh, also, re. the 'why did you do that?' questions - don't bother with those with any child. Most children don't know why they do some things, and sometimes the motivation is something so deep they really do have no idea. Asking them just puts them on the spot and makes them feel horrible. Don't do it.

Suggest your sister and you read How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids WIll Talk by Faber and Mazlish and/or Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn.

mrsmaidamess · 15/05/2009 07:00

Oh leave him alone!

He's 3 1/2!! Poor kid.

He's probably thinking 'If I just shut down, maybe they will shut up'

EachPeachPearMum · 15/05/2009 07:18

It sounds like it's all too much for him... particularly as he has language issues anyway.
I would ease off- 3 year olds are pretty random and their behaviour is not good, because even when they know what is right and wrong, they have poor impulse control.

My DD (same age) sometimes gets like this... usually at the end of a bad day. For her though, she doesn't drop eye contact, she keeps it... the mutism is a protest, and it is her trying to get control of the situation. I know when we get to that stage it's time to stop talking, start hugging, and just help her by doing it for her (ie pjs on, etc etc)

What are his other behaviour issues?

As the youngest, it is probably difficult for him to feel in control most of the time- everyone else is above him in the pecking order, and getting attention, even negative attention is what he wants/needs.

Maybe some one-on-one time with his mum just for him each day would help (though maybe he has this?... my 3 year old wants 1-to-1 all day, 24 hours if she could, so I think its part and parcel of being 3 tbh)

flamingobingo · 15/05/2009 07:19

Oh yes, Each Peach, this is def. about control - you're so right! I hadn't thought of that.

EachPeachPearMum · 15/05/2009 07:33

The problem is... 3yo don't have the same resources and mechanisms we have to gain/keep control... so they have to resort to whatever they know gets a reaction.

I'm sorry to say this Pic but when my DD does this it is a signal to me that I am being too controlling... it was a shocker the first time I realised, but I have learned to take a step back, and handle things in a different way. It got to a stage where I realised that I was going to damage her if we continued like that.

bubblagirl · 15/05/2009 07:36

the first thing i see is his speech is delayed and yet the questions are being thrown at him continuously

his speech is not and will not be at his peers rate and shouldn't be expected to be able to answer all the questions thrown at him the avoidance of eye contact can be a insecurity thing such as oh no another question i dont know how to answer i don't want to disappoint anyone like a sensory over load

my ds has ASD but he has delayed speech and took him to 4 to get to same rate as peers near enough
but too much asking nt or sn will only cause overload and they will shut down

his doing great

i agree with spending fun time with mum not too much speaking or asking questions or long words

i was told to verbalize all i was doing but keeping talking down to 3-4 words when talking with ds so he can learn the use of words as if conversation contains too many they only pick out the words they know anyway

i would lay off with all the questions speech therapist said its too much when they have only just learnt to speak there still sussing out the right way

as for please and thank you my ds knows but again x wants cereal i just say what the magic word and he says please mummy and then after i say what do you say he says thank you it will come with time

it really sounds like, he is being forced to much to talk how everyone else wants him to yet his only been speaking for 5 mths just let him be comfortable with language and it will come along you risk him not wanting to talk if too much is being thrown at him

also has your sister taking him to gp regarding speech? he may be assessed to amke sure no other underlying things going on also can be put forward for speech therapy

bubblagirl · 15/05/2009 07:44

and as for the i want you tell me what i said that was big no no i got in big trouble for doing this with ds when he first started speaking i was anxious and usefd to do the tell me what i said did you hear me blah blah and got very told off

its too much and its actually cruel just let your words be heard but dont force him to tell you back what you said as he heard the words he probably made out what they meant but doesnt mean he understands how to tell you back what you said again it comes with time

and being forceful unfortunately only adds to the problems and could cause long term anxiety when it comes to him speaking

i was told to back off completely and not expect too much from a child who has only just learnt to speak his still understanding and absorbing information to relax as if words are coming they will keep coming he shouldn't be expected to answer questions only small 2-3 word questions and wh questions may not be ready at all ds is only just getting these now

i think it wouldnt hurt for your sister to seek advise as she could use it to in the right way to help ds as we all think were doing the right thing ad our actions can actually have huge impact on them i learnt the hard way but was open to the help and it definitly worked when i backed off he was more comfortable to attempt speech without being made to feel wrong i was just told to repeat sentence back properly but not correct him at all

mackie9117 · 15/05/2009 07:45

Poor little chap! The whole thing at tea time about a chip was a bit over the top.
It is just a chip and the poor fellow ends up being sent to bed. Back off! Read each peach suggestions again, I agree with her.

bubblagirl · 15/05/2009 07:52

soory re read again its too much im sorry in some parts if she's getting stressed and shouting its the worst thing you can do any child will shut off the expectations are far too high and she needs to treat him as boy with delayed speech that means being calm giving him the right amount of time to answer maybe even asking again to process the question but punishing for not answering im sorry is cruel and expecting him to tell you what either one of you said my ds couldnt do that now if i asked him

relax around him give him a chance

go to gp see if there is nothing more to this but if im honest i think his being slightly bullied into to talking his not being aloud to just learn and talk in his own rate the expectations are too high and potentially damaging give him cuddles give him reassurance his a baby still his looking up to everybody for support and i cant see his getting it

please seek some help i feel he could benefit with being taught the right way and so could everybody else for his sake

thirtypence · 15/05/2009 07:55

If he only started talking at 3 and he his only 3.5 now - then it expecting a lot of him in some of the instances you describe.

Think of him as a two year old in his asking for things and providing explanations - you wouldn't send a child to bed for being a little vague, rude or forgetting please would you?

Sending a child to bed for not being able to communicate sounds like it is more for your benefit than his.

He sounds trapped and terrified and he literally cannot learn new stuff whilst his brain is flooding with cortisol like this.

My six year old doesn't know "why" he does stupid things. He does them because he is six. He does them because his frontal lobe is not sufficiently developed. he does things because he can, because he gets distracted, because he wonders what will happen, because he saw a friend do it. None of this can be communicated by him to me as a 6 year old that has been talking for over 4 years. So a child who has only been talking for 5 months, is subject to long and numerous conversations about why he hasn't tried a chip, and is stressed and anxious and has a language delay doesn't stand a chance.

I am in a very hard way saying two things:

Chill
Use short sentences
Pick your battles.

bubblagirl · 15/05/2009 07:59

why dont you post this also in sn forum as lots of people who have children with delayed speech could give you the right help in helping him

AccioPinotGrigio · 15/05/2009 13:17

To be honest if somebody was prepared to repeat the same thing to me a thousand times a day in an effort to get me to listen I would zone out too - poor little kid. Also potty training isn't "ugh" it's an important developmental stage which you has an adult need to handle intelligently.

Please give the kid a break and tailor your 'parenting' methods to his personality. Using a one size fits all method of discipline is not helping, you are expecting him to conform and he keeps falling short of your expectations - that can only send one message to him ie he is not good enough.

Please advise your sister to read the Alfie Kohn book Unconditional Parenting - you should read it to.

Pic · 15/05/2009 16:44

Thanks a lot first for all the messages. I get what a lot of you are saying, and my post reads back this morning much worse than it did last night...I think yesterday was just a really stressful day [we both agreed that before I left] and it got too much towards the end.

The only reason I wanted him to repeat it back to me was for some sign that he understood. It's very easy for him to nod to get out of the situation but if he's not actually understanding it, what's the point? I get that we could have handled it differently [and on a different day I probably would have] but how are we meant to know if he gets it?

I think we just get frustrated because he is so bright when he wants to be, and pretends to be stupid a lot of the time to get out of things. [He was being dressed by someone else up till a couple of months ago when his mom left him downstairs with a set of clothes saying nothing but, "We're going out very soon," and went up to sort out his sister. When she came down he was fully dressed, even t-shirt the right way out. Same with shoes - he would say he couldn't put them on himself, until one day she just said, "Quick, put your shoes on, we're going out!" and he did it there and then, because he wanted to go.] His nursery teacher says the same thing, that he can be amazing when he feels like it, but when he doesn't it's like he makes a conscious decision to regress.

That's what stresses us out - he has all the potential but doesn't want to use it unless it benefits him, so it's not like he can't do things. He just won't. Although sometimes of course [like with language things] he actually can't, and it's very difficult to know the difference.

When he can't do things, fine - he can learn them in his own time. When he can do them but won't, that deserves to be addressed.

Like we said yesterday though...tomorrow is a new day. I'm going to see how today went and try to yeah, chill out a bit.

OP posts:
bubblagirl · 15/05/2009 17:00

also remember his age and pick your battles to understand language you have had to have used it for a while so he may nod and understand you but the amount of words again and processing a question back would be too haed for him doesnt mean he hasnt heard and again the pressure of saying it back would make him shut down its too much

pick battles his still a baby give lots of praise for all efforts made stop asking questions first thing i was told its not fair on a child still trying to process language

its more for your benefit but its not for his his still young and alot of children at that age wouldnt be able to do it

dont be too hard on him its strange how it stresses everybody out so much his a young child doing what young children do enjoy him and stop expecting too much from him

relax and he will too he is probably anxious alot as his being treated like his older than his 3 years and expected to behave older than his 3 years

toddlers are trying walk away and dont show him he stresses you all out inside his probably trying so hard poor mite

AccioPinotGrigio · 15/05/2009 17:13

I get that we could have handled it differently [and on a different day I probably would have] but how are we meant to know if he gets it?

thirtypence · 15/05/2009 20:10

Sorry to break this to you - but sometimes I still have to dress my extremely clever 6 year old, because his mind is on other things and he just can't focus. Other days he will do it straight away and perfectly. Some days he will get annoyed his sock won't go on right and give up the whole thing in tears.

It's great that your sisters ds can get himself dressed. it's also normal that he won't want to do it all the time.

You say if he won't do something he can do then that needs to be addressed. If you keep on at him, and he's as bright as you say he may start to avoid trying anything new, on case he has to do it all the time. And I am thinking important things here - ds pretended he hadn't learnt to read (taught himself - I could hear him with a brand new book he'd never seen before reading in his bedroom) because he (wrongly) thought he wouldn't get read to.

And I agree that you will know he understood when he does something willingly and regularly.

fucksticks · 15/05/2009 20:22

To be honest it doesnt matter whether you know that he 'gets it' or not. Dont put him under stress and pressure just so you can be reassured he 'gets it'
Better to make him fee secure and happy and if he 'gets it' then great, and if he doesnt then he will, in his own time, with the right help.
My 3.5 yr old always says things like 'biscuit mummy' and when I say 'what do you say?' he says 'please!' I just then tell him 'can I have a biscuit please mummy' and give him the biscuit.
He will say the whole thing unpromted one day, but until then I'll just keep calmly and nicely reminding him what he should be learning and he'll take it in within his own time. Keep sending him to bed for not 'getting it' immediately is probably distracting him from what you want him to remember!

Re-read your OP again. It seems you are making the stress for all of you and punishing this small child a lot for something that doesnt really deserve any punsihment at all!

Pitchounette · 15/05/2009 20:27

Message withdrawn

MrsMattie · 15/05/2009 20:30

From your OP, I think it sounds like you and his mum are using too many words when addressing him and expecting too much back - and he literally cannot cope with this level of verbal communication.

Maybe you could work on scaling back what you say to him - simple instructions, some nice everyday chat - and lower your expectations of what he 'should' be saying/doing. I know from personal experience with my 4 yr old that if I ask him direct, open ended questions ('how are you?' 'how was nursery' he gets irritable and a bit confused. So I tend to get info out of him more subtly, through friendly chat or I ask him 'yes/no' questions when I really need to know the answer.

WriggleJiggle · 15/05/2009 20:34

dd is 3. Her behaviour is almost identical. Any difficult questions, where she has to admit a mistake she has made or when she thinks she is going to be in trouble is met with an absolute resolute silence.

TBH I'm quite pleased with this (is that a little odd?) I think it shows that she is now starting to understand the difference between right and wrong.

Her speech has always been fnatastic, way ahead of her peers, but put in a pressure situation she just clams up.

To guarentee an answer about something really important (e.g. where have you put mummy's car keys ), I give her a cuddle and a kiss as I'm asking, with a smiley happy sort of voice.

Sorry, but I really do think you are asking far far far too much of a 3.5 year old.

flamingobingo · 15/05/2009 20:35

Who cares if he 'gets it'? He'll learn it in time - it's a drip, drip effect with children (with adults too, really!). You don't need to keep testing to check he's learnt or understood something - in fact that's a fast track way to put him off learning or trying to understand you. Take him seriously, please - do you ask your DP to repeat back to you what you just said to check he understood you? I'm assuming not, so don't do it to your DN! He's a person too! Just because he's only been around 3 years, doesn't mean you need to treat him the way you and his mum are treating him. Sorry to sound harsh, but I think you are being harsh to him.

slowreadingprogress · 15/05/2009 21:38

oh my goodness the adults in this child's life are expecting WAY too much. This is a TODDLER! Please, please stop and pull back and leave this kid alone.

He is probably understanding a few words out of each long, complex adult sentence. So, so unfair and pressurising to stand there demanding he tells you what you've just said

my goodness, lots of kids are still being dressed in some way at 5, or wanting their bums wiped, or whatever. It's SO not unusual...they all get there in time.

I agree with lots of the posts on here - good advice and I'm glad you seem open to taking it.

If you and his mum carry on this way, this boy will suffer. End of story.

3littlefrogs · 15/05/2009 21:48

Your expectations of his understanding and behaviour are WAY TOO HIGH. He is 3.5.

What you describe as "standard discipline" would be appropriate for a child of at least 5 or 6, not a 3 year old.

If he has a speech delay, it won't be helped by adding more stress.

slowreadingprogress · 15/05/2009 22:02

re-reading that section where you describe how you and his mum dealt with the 'did you try a chip' thing actually makes me feel stressed!

You asked him to try a chip. Then a few minutes later took him to the kitchen and asked him what you'd said. then you said if he couldn't remember that was fine he just had to tell you he couldn't remember. Then his mum chips in with telling him something (to him) UTTERLY unrelated, and complex to understand, that when told to do something by an adult, you do it, then you come back at him and ask him what she'd just said

OH my GOD the poor boy must be confused

You are talking to him and treating him as you might a ten year old.

I think you are both over-parenting and it is time right now to examine whether there really are 'problems with his behaviour' or whether it's actually problems with the adults understanding/expectations.

I will step away now, but your first post really did prey on my mind!