Please or to access all these features

Behaviour/development

Talk to others about child development and behaviour stages here. You can find more information on our development calendar.

3 year old completely avoids speaking when being disciplined

37 replies

Pic · 15/05/2009 04:10

The title sounds a little harsh, I know, but I was just being succint. Okay, a more descriptive version...

I'm asking about my nephew, who is 3 years 5 months. I've been googling all over the place and got nothing so far because my search isn't specific enough, but it's a bit complicated to describe...

Basically, there are a lot of problems with his behaviour but what is really troubling his mum and I at the moment [I spend a lot of time with my niece & nephews, will 'parent' when needed] is his 'tuning out'.

When he's happy, he'll make eye contact no problem, will converse, will answer questions with sentences. However, as soon as he thinks he's being told off [even with a simple, "Did you _ ?" question, in a completely non-judgemental tone of voice, he switches off. You can see him literally glazing over. He will drop his head, turn it away or even close his eyes to stop from looking at you.

That drives his mum mad, but I can cope with it because I figure if it makes it easier for him not to look at me, fine. But he seems completely unable to answer simple questions when in this mode, and we can't work out if he's choosing not to answer or literally cannot hear/understand the question [because he has tuned out, out of...fear? Confusion?].

For example, today he told me he'd finished his dinner and I asked him if he'd eaten any of his chips. He said no. I asked him if he could try one. I could see him literally just falling into a trance. He just switches off from the world. I tried to wait it out figuring he might eventually try to offer something [my fuse is a lot longer than his mom's and she'll usually send him to bed soon after, but I wanted to see if he'd do anything else when given the time].

After a couple of minutes [and having to move into the kitchen away from the distractions of his siblings] I asked him what I'd asked him to do. He stared blankly at me for a few seconds then away again. I waited a bit then asked the question again, adding that if he couldn't remember or didn't know, that was okay, he just had to say so. Nothing.

His mom then got involved and said to him, "When an adult asks you to do something, you do it." [Well, that was the cut down version.] He looked at her [because she'd told him to] and sort of nodded, but I asked immediately after, "What did mummy just say to you?"

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I repeated the phrase, then asked the question. Nothing. "I am going to say it once more, and I want you to tell me what I said." I did. "I am going to count to three, and if you can't tell me, you'll go to bed. One, two-" "Can't remember." [The first thing he's said in about five loooong minutes, remember.] "Okay, that's fine. We'll do it one word at a time. You say it after me. When." Blank stare. "I'm going to count to three, and if you can't say it when I get to three, you'll go to bed. When. One-" I got to three. He went to bed. Immediately we started to go, he burst into whining.

He's also being toilet trained at the moment [ugh, don't ask] and was sitting on the toilet earlier when his mom went in and found the floor wet. She told him that wee goes in the toilet, he knows that and accidents are okay but he'd been in the toilet for a good five minutes before he actually sat on it, so that was not an accident. His sister then handed me the new toy I put in there today which is supposed to be full of water...except it wasn't. I pointed this out and his mom apologised to him, and reminded him that just because she's mommy doesn't mean that's always right, and he can tell her when she's in the wrong. He sat with his head down the entire time.

[Not wanting to tell mommy when she's wrong definitely isn't an issue of mommy getting angry at that because his older brothers point that out all the time, and she apologises and concedes when she forgot something or contradicted herself or whatever. The four year old also corrected nursery teachers a year ago. So this isn't something he's learned is a bad idea, but something he's choosing not to do.]

We've recently been trying to teach him to ask for things rather than demand them, too. Most requests go, "Me want biscuit mom." [His speech was quite delayed; you could have entire nonverbal conversations with him as a two year old but he only started speaking when he turned three. He understood tons though - seems like he understood more then than he does now.] The amount of times we've said recently, "What do you say if you want something?"... He remembers, "Please," and we agree that's right but when you ask what else or what the question is he'll either say nothing or throw in 'mom' or 'thank you'. Even getting his brother to join in - "What would you say if you wanted a biscuit, Conner?" "Can I have a biscuit please?" - only works half the time. It's like getting blood out of a stone.

I am totally prepared to repeat this a thousand times a day if that's what he NEEDS, but we can't figure out if he's doing it because he likes the attention and/or thinks it's funny to get us to repeat ourselves. If he literally cannot understand the information [and it's not a case of retention - this is repeating a word RIGHT AFTER you've said it] then that's something we need to get help with, because it sounds like something more serious. If it's a case of he can't be arsed to say anything then he'll just have to make that choice and deal with the consequences.

I did wonder today if it was that he just finds it easier to let an adult choose for him than to make the choice himself, even if the consequence is bad. Today after dinner I know he understood the question because as soon as I counted the first time he jumped in with, "Can't remember," so he clearly saw that as a way out, which I'd given him a minute or so before. He avoided being sent to bed. But with one word at a time, he obviously can't use that, so he chose to say nothing and ended up in bed.

I am aware of the phenomenon of selective hearing [his older brother was excellent at it until recently when he started to discover that if he couldn't make the choice, we would make it for him] but the way he just literally switches off seems to be so much more drastic. He isn't being shouted at, he's being asked questions, sometimes as simple as yes/no, he's not being asked to make eye contact, and he just can't or won't respond, until you say, "Okay, /consequence/," and then it's, "No, NO!" and the whining.

Sorry, that was incredibly long and probably over-detailed but I just wanted to give a few examples. Has anyone experienced this sort of extreme thing before, and what did you do about it? Do we carry on with standard discipline [time out, losing treats, etc] and hope it kicks in, repeating ourselves ad nauseum, or does he really have trouble focusing for whatever reason that we need to get help with?

OP posts:
AitchTwoOh · 15/05/2009 22:06

the first post is too long for me to read, my eyes were swimming i'm afraid, but i just wanted to say that my absolutely charming 3 year-old daughter who has no issues with language at all (quite the opposite) also will not meet my gaze when being disciplined. i can quite understand the impulse to glaze over when i'm yakking at her, tbh, so i see it as a message to me to take it down a notch and instead leave her to think, iykwim?

BecauseImWorthIt · 15/05/2009 22:13

Poor little boy! How many adults does he have talking to him like this? No wonder he's glazing over/zoning out.

Back off and allow him to be a little boy.

AitchTwoOh · 15/05/2009 22:21

have just read your second post, Pic... i think it might be worthwhile if the adults in this child's life read some books about normal toddlers, what they're capable of and how they learn. i really feel for the wee lad, i think you're all fucking it up for him tbh.

bookswapper · 15/05/2009 22:28

ha...when I am expressing my dismay to my 3.5 year old, he either switches off completely or sticks his fingers in his ears and shouts "I cant hear you, I've got my ears plugged!

chegirl · 15/05/2009 22:30

I have read the first half of the thread but have jumped to the top because I will forget if I dont.

It does sound as if you are ascribing (right word?) motives for his behaviour which are not developementally appropriate for his age.

He is very bright when he wants to be but pretends to be stupid.

No he doesnt. That is not what 3 year olds do.

Its no wonder you and his mum are getting upset if you think he is doing things 'on purpose'. Kids DO wind us up but very young children do NOT conspire to do so. This way madness and conflict lies.

My son has language delay. Asking him WHY he does things is a waste of time. He doesnt know and he doesnt understand why I want to know. If he does not understand what is going on he shuts up. He doesnt like not understanding, it distresses him so he backs off and does not engage.

I am a pretty wordy person so its been a hard lesson learnt. I have to keep things simple and cut out the extranious (sorry I know what it means just crap speller) chatter.

If your nephew has a language delay much of that whole chip thing would have been a mystery to him. Asking him to repeat stuff back to you does not gaurantee understanding, he can repeat it without having a clue what you are on about.

He IS only 3.

tw1nkley · 15/05/2009 22:46

pic

I haven't read all the posts.

I have read most of the 1st page and scanned the rest.

I have to ask, when this little boy "tunes out" is there anything the same about it each time?

body position? angle holding head? facial expression? How long does it last? REM? ANYTHING???

I agree with some of the others that a more relaxed approach might help de-stress the situation a have a more positive effect than the current tactic, but I am worried that there might be more to it than a communication problem. The fact that your DN said "couldn't remember" in response to what you had both said could be for several reasons, that he didn't want to listen and heard only blah blah blah, but could have an entirly different explanation. Please don't assume this is a speech / developement problem. Consider all aspects.

I do not like to worry people (and hopefully I haven't), but often we can become very tunnel visioned about problems and need to look at things from a broader view / fresh perspective.

I have added this link because in your situation knowing what I now know I would consider it. Personally I would speak to gp asap.

AitchTwoOh · 15/05/2009 22:48

interesting thought, twink.

Pic · 16/05/2009 01:02

There's nothing similar about it, no. Sometimes he hangs his head, sometimes he turns away [and then gets distracted by what's going on elsewhere in the room], sometimes looks just over your shoulder or to the floor or whatever. Facial expression is either blank or upset. He'll stay like that till you speak to him again and offer a question, or until he gets distracted by someone else.

I read the link and googled a bit more and I honestly don't think it's that [have a gut feeling it doesn't fit the symptoms] but I'll keep an eye on him and see if it happens at any other time. So far I've only ever seen this happen when he thinks he's being told off.

Just want to point out as well cause I think a lot of people have misread it, I wasn't asking him why he hadn't tried a chip. I asked him if he could try one - i.e. "Can you try one for me?" - which is the way we usually phrase a polite request. He 'tuned out' because he didn't want to do it, and I wanted him to tell me what I'd said to check that he knew why we were still there.

Yeah, in retrospect what happened after doesn't sound as logical. Like I said, that had been a really stressful day.

OP posts:
thirtypence · 16/05/2009 06:13

"can you try one for me?"

answer is no (although he did not give it - he clearly did not try the chip)

3.5 year old boy very confused about why the fuss.

"Eat one chip." or "bite one chip" - depends what you want and how optional it was.

Politeness really has a place, honest it does - but sometimes not with a 3 year old. Dh used to ask me why I didn't say please to ds, and I used to say "because it's not optional" or "because it's an extra word for him to listen to."

tw1nkley · 16/05/2009 08:01

Pic,

From experience I discovered that absences can be seen from the outside to look like "tuning out" from a stressful incident.

The child it was happening to had an incredibly low threshold when it came to anything stressful and her brain would effectivly shut down for a few seconds as a protective mechanism. It took literally years for anyone to realise there was a problem at all, during which time her education, developement, abitities at understanding/interacting with other children was seriously effected. Also as it was assumed that she was Tuning out/switching off on purpose she spent a lot of time in trouble at school etc, all stressful -all adding to the problem. 3 years on and a month into treatment she was a different child.

I wouldn't want to see it happen to another child. I hope that my hypothesis is wrong, but i'm glad you have considered it because it will always be in your mind as an option. Several things in your op made a little voice in the back of my mind start shouting iykwim?

I you have even the slightest doubt at all you should speak to his gp ( or at least his mum should) It can be conclusivley ruled out very easily.

Good Luck,

bubblagirl · 16/05/2009 08:07

i would suggest seeing gp anyway as it speech is delayed would need to referred to speech therapy and rule out such things as ASD speech delay again seizures as noted above it should be mentioned to gp so relevant help and advise can be given

mumeeee · 16/05/2009 16:36

Leave him alone. You are expecting to much of a 3.5 year old who has only recently starting speaking.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page