Any sleep experts out there?

[charleyfarleycat]

Hi all
I'm really at the end of my tether. I have an 8 week old and a daughter who is nearly 3. She wakes every night (last night she was on and off crying and asking for us from 0115 to 0300).
If I am remembering correctly this started in September which coincides with 2 events. She started nursery in the afternoons and had to cut out her lunchtime sleep, and we told her I was pregnant.
During my pregnancy I thought she could be overtired, unsettled due to school and that this would just be a phase. But it's going on rather too long to be a phase.
Now that the baby's here I'm more convinced that she is attention seeking/jealous/upset that he is here. We have any excuse from monsters, bats, wanting more milk, not liking her bed etc.
On a daily basis she is loving towards him and doesn't say anything bad about him.
How can I get her to go back to sleeping for my own sanity? I really don't know what to do, but am close to leaving her to cry, which is not something I have done before but something has to give. I know this can be a controversial subject but I really don't know what else to do. I won't do it though if there is serious thought that it could emotionally affect a very bright 3 year old?
Can anyone help me before I curl up in a ball?

If she is feeling anxious or jealous about the new baby she probably needs lots of love and attention to get her through that. Maybe try to encourage her to see that the baby likes her 'specially' - babies often smile at older children so it shouldn't be too hard to plant the idea. You describe her behaviour towards him as loving but I wouldn't focus on that too much, if she doesn't in fact feel 'loving' towards him (and she might well not, I wouldn't feel loving towards a new partner if DP brought one home, however much he might suggest I should and tell me that she was part of the family now) there might be guilt about that adding to her anxiety.

I know this doesn't address your sleep issue but if this is the problem I think maybe you need to focus on the cause rather than the symptom.

Does she have to go to nursery?
Could she stay at home with you and the baby and perhaps you could give her more attention than usual for a while. See if that helps her to settle and feel more secure.
If the baby is in your room could it be she is coming in during the night because she feels left out? could you make her a little bed on the floor in your room.where she could lie down and be quiet if she comes in during the night?

I agree with Juuule. I think you need to take a big step back. If she doesn't have to go to nursery, could you defer her place for 6 months? If you could get a morning place at that point that would be even better.

She sounds exhausted, insecure, jealous and very unhappy.

It is hard for you to deal with it when you are so tired yourself, but she is very small, and I think you need to drastically lower your expectations.

You all need to be having a nap in the afternoons.

"You all need to be having a nap in the afternoons. "

This would be ideal.

First of all, the baby is no longer in our room as he has outgrown his moses basket and there is no room for a cot.
I don't think her sleeping in our room is an option as she has never done so (apart from as a baby) and whenever we have tried in the past she has completely woken up and never gone back to sleep.
Nursery is actually a little Montessori which she really, really loves so I'm not sure that she will see not going as a good thing, rather something else bad that has happened.

If you don't want her sleeping in your room, what about going into hers? Could you get into her bed at the side of her until she falls asleep?

As regards nursery, if you feel she does really benefit from it, could she swap to mornings?

Just another thought.

When mine have woken up like this I've found that it's better to get up with them for an hour rather than a couple of hours resenting my disturbed night and them getting upset.

Thanks Juuule. I might try sleeping in her room instead. Could be quite amusing us both trying to squeeze into her cotbed. How do you think it will affect her when the baby cries for milk and I have to leave her if she's awake. I'll be abandoning her again won't I?
As for mornings, I have been begging since she started that she do mornings but there is no room. She will be doing mornings from September though. She has made some lovely friends at nursery and her personality has really grown so I would be loathe to take her out for a bit.
Sorry, I'm finding it a bit hard to think as I really haven't slept for so long!

If she's awake, could you bring the baby into her room and feed, then put the baby back?

If her bed is too cramped, what about a put you up at the side if there's room, or inflatable mattress or just a sleeping bag? It would only be until she was asleep.

Don't feel bad about setting boundaries here. If she is feeling unsettled by becoming a sibling and other changes then she probably needs some rigidity more than ever.

Decide hwo you want to tackle being firm about bedtime and sleep time and then stick to it and don't feel you are giving her less of you for doing so.

In a lot of ways the more you try and accomodate her and her neediness around bedtime the more you reinforce the sense that you are not in control and it may well freak her!

You could do CC, PUPD, Gradual Retreat, etc. Doesn't matter which really so long as you stick to your guns and she feels you are taking this seriously. I suspect that very fact will reassure her greatly and you'll quickly see an improvement.

"the more you try and accomodate her and her neediness around bedtime the more you reinforce the sense that you are not in control "

I presume you mean by this if there's a lot of faffing going on.
Absolutely not going to give a sense of parent not being in control if the charley takes dd back to bed, settles her and tells her that she (charley) will stay as long as dd is quiet and closes her eyes.

Don't see much problem with doing that unless OP thinks DD will massively take advantage of the situation and won't actually shut eyes and be quiet!

Hobbgoblin - in terms of my daughter I think you have her sussed. She tries it on every night when we first put her down but she never gets her own way when she wants one more story or wants to go downstairs etc. And I'm fairly certain that during the day she knows her boundaries, but nevertheless tests them like any toddler.
I suppose I'm worried that the way I treat this and how it consequently affects her will stay with her long term, so I want to make sure we get it right. She has always been such a wonderfully happy girl that it makes me so sad that she is upset like this.
Sorry, lack of sleep is making me rather emotional today!

Could you do just 2 or 3 afternoons per week at nursery? When ds2 was just 3, I only did part time with him as he would have been tired out going every day. He went 3 mornings a week, until he was 3 and a half.

She goes 3 afternoons a week which consists of 2 hours each time.

Oh - OK. I just remember ds1 being absolutely exhausted and miserable with his afternoon place - and he was nearly 4! I vowed I would never accept an afternoon place for the others - it was just too traumatic, with a little one to cope with as well.

He was so overtired that he slept very badly at night. When children are overtired, they sleep badly, and the whole thing becomes a vicious circle.

Things improved a bit when I moved his bedtime to 6 pm. It was a real battle to stop him falling asleep on the way home from nursery at 3.30. It was difficult.

I've wondered if overtiredness is to blame. I too was reluctant to take up an afternoon place, but it was the nursery I liked the feel of the most and that's all they offer newcomers.
I will try doing an early tea and bed and see what happens tonight, though I suspect it will be a few weeks before I notice a difference.
My mum has just been on the phone telling me to leave her to cry and that I mustn't give in, but although that's what I sometimes feel like doing, it feels against my instinct. I have so many different ideas in my head I feel like I'm going crackers!

Sorry, forgot to say thank you 3littlefrogs.

You know you can do controlled crying in a really gentle way - checking every 2 mins - which is what I do with clients who want to use CC but have doubts about the 'damage' it may do!

There is no one method for sleep training, there are many methods and one will suit you more than another depending on your family's personality.

Best not to listen to too much advice from many angles I reckon and try and tune into your own instinct.

Also, I'll go against the grain here and say don't look to loads of exterior factors as explanations. Obviously if your DD is up until 9pm learning origami she may not sleep well, likewise if a pneumatic drill goes off every night outside her room at midnight she will not sleep well. Everything else is in the normal run of things and can be tolerated and accommodated without feeling as though sleep is an enigma. You need a killer combo of sensitivity and firmness and if you listen to your inner parenting voice then you'll achieve that no problem.

Take some time out from the sleep 'problem' in your heads and formulate a plan once you've given yourself some space to do so.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply to me, thank you. I spoke to my husband earlier and we are going to discuss more when he gets back.
Am I bonkers to think that a nearly 3 year old can be damaged?!
My instinct is telling me to start getting tougher or we'll all go mad. Controlled crying in a gentle way sounds like the right method for us as she has never been left to cry and up until last September slept 7-7 like an angel. The only caveat to that is that she stops as soon as we go in and tries to engage us into conversation.

These are old but they might be interesting reading. However, like I said don't get bogged down with the opinions of others too much!

written by a client

I wrote this one

I am speaking from experience...a very similar thing happened with us. Generally, my advice would be is to try and keep as many things unchanged in her life as possible. For example, if she went to nursery before her baby brother was born, she should go as she went before...and the same applies to bedtimes, by which I mean the bedtime routine--hours, stories, whatever it was before the baby.

Regarding crying, I am not a fan, of leaving children to cry it out, esp. such young children trying to cope with the pain and fear the newcomer may cause. That is actually a very understandable reaction. However, routine has to stay the way it was before, and as some others have suggested before (this is what eventually I did), go in every few minutes, reassure her that everything is ok, express your love for her in any way you feel, but be firm, don't let it go on for more than half a minute, and then walk out confidently, and calmly...you may have to do this hundreds of times, in the beginning, but in the end, I think this is what helps. You recognise her pain and put through the message that you care, but by your calm and confident attitude you also show she has nothing to be afraid of.

Main point is, that she should not be lead to think that anything has changed in your relationship with her....if you go in and sleep with her, either way, she might get the impression there is a good reason she is afraid and upset.

Totally agree with lovesofmylife.

"if you go in and sleep with her, either way, she might get the impression there is a good reason she is afraid and upset."

Mine didn't

I thought the rest was good advice though, and well worth a try. If it works great. If not....

Thanks Hobbgoblin. Very interesting articles. I think I'm a combination - I don't want too much crying, but I want to see results quickly!! Ha ha, think I need a reality check!
Just out of interest, do you want another client!