give it to me fair and square - how much of this is normal for almost 3 - really need to know

[hereidrawtheline]

we have been having problems with DS who is 3 in August since he turned 2. For this reason he was "loosely" considered ASD. He is now being really much more intensively looked into by a great specialist. However what I really want is to hear from other Mums - SN and NT - how much of this is normal and I need to suck it up and deal with it with discipline. I should say we do discipline him with verbal warnings, things like, taking toy away if he hits with it, explanations about why the rules are etc. But we dont do TO. We tried it for a couple of months and it was horrible and taught him nothing so we dropped it. It was really disproportionate the amount he got upset.

Ok so a brief rundown -

has obvious sensory issues, major wind phobia, light issues, touch sensitive. Just holding his hand on a road he will cry and scream you are hurting his hand.

He is extremely verbal - he has an obvious problem with speech in pronouncing things which has been noted by specialist but his vocab is huge and he speaks in normal complete sentences with all the right words etc.

He throws horrible tantrums, and screams and shouts very nastily when he doesnt get his own way, i.e. having to come in from the garden after playing for an hour.

He wont play on his own at all.

He never ever stops talking and usually extremely loudly.

He deliberately starts shouting in my face when I have to take a phone call - I will leave the room because I cant hear and he will follow me and if I shut a door he will bang on it and scream. This is very embarrassing on the phone and makes my life so difficult.

He refuses to be alone, if I go to the bathroom for a quick wee he is there with me. He will follow me from room to room right behind me so I am a nervous wreck he is always making me trip over him and I dont want to accidentally hurt him.

He spat in my face yesterday when I said it was time to cut his fingernails I have to say in his defence he is truly a lovely affectionate child who normally just adores me and is very funny and kind but his anger is getting so much. Also he has never seen anyone spit in anyone else's face before I dont know where he came up with that one.

When you are cooking dinner he will go mental every night because it isnt already on the table ready he just has no concept of waiting at all.

He cries constantly about being hurt if I stub my toe or in the most recent instance when I cried out in pain because he hit me he then started crying saying he was hurt and wont stop.

Simple things like getting him dressed are a total nightmare. He doesnt help you at all, he doesnt help move his legs or anything and is usually working against you.

He whines loads and ... oh fuck it. I dont know. I am sure I am moaning about what every other mother goes through. He is just so difficult, so intense, he is always underfoot shouting or making demands or whatever. I am just feeling so pissed off at the moment.

I do not spoil him. I regularly do age appropriate corrections but I dont know if I should be doing more. He is getting too rude for my liking with things like the phone and obeying me & his Dad etc. He is very very clever and creative and makes up very intricate stories and very funny and sweet and follows me around and says I am pretty & he loves me etc. He really is not all bad.

I think I am just trying to ascertain if this really is the "terrible twos" or SN. I had decided in my heart it was SN of some sort but I am not sure now.

anyone?

I can relate to most of what you have posted, however certain things do sound unusual- the lack of co-operation in getting dressed, the going mental when dinner is late and the sensory issues would worry me.

I don't have any experience of SN so am not much help on that front, sorry.
You sound like you are a very patient and caring mummy doing your best with a sensitive and demanding and lovely child.
I hope that someone can come along who can help you more.

I can relate to most of what you have posted, however certain things do sound unusual- the lack of co-operation in getting dressed, the going mental when dinner is late and the sensory issues would worry me.

I don't have any experience of SN so am not much help on that front, sorry.
You sound like you are a very patient and caring mummy doing your best with a sensitive and demanding and lovely child.
I hope that someone can come along who can help you more.

A lot of these things such as extreme tantrumming, inability to wait, refusing to get dressed etc. my little brother used to do. Even the spitting. There was nothing wrong with him, he was just a little sodvery naughty and stubborn little boy until my mum and the school got together a big discipline plan when he was about 6. But not the sensory problems, the stuff you've described about being hurt, and not wanting to be on his own.

ah thanks for your replies. I am so tired. We went out because I thought a change of scenery would do us both good. Went to a friends house, she has a DS same age as my DS and there was another Mum and DC there. It was such a stressful nightmare. DS wouldnt play with the other 2 and engage at all. We were trying to play ball together and throw it one from the other and he was playing cars and I kept trying to make sure he was included so we were throwing the ball to him and it was sometimes bouncing off his head and he didnt even look up. It was a little tiny touchy feely ball so obviously not hitting him hard but he didnt even notice. And I kept saying "It's your turn DS" and then "DS, DS, DS, DS, its your turn" and he didnt even look up. Made me so sad. Then sometimes he realised the ball had been thrown to him so he smiled really sweetly and said "thank you" and threw it back but that was it. He wasnt interested again.

I have been going so back and forth thinking autism then not then again and today has just really done my head in.

bump

Have you approached a) your health visitor as a route to professional assessment? and/or b) your GP for the same. If you are worried, you may as well take positive action rather than googling endlessly (I speak from experience!) I have two SN type children (not wanting to go into more detail) and the HV was useful as a springboard for help with one of them. The second was in -utero so not really relevant.

we are already being assessed by CAMHS, specialist pead and specialist HV. Its just I was feeling maybe I was going mad and its all in my head and he is like every other almost 3 year old.

I don't think they would assess if they were just trying to placate you - hope you get some answers soon.

i have no experience with SN at all so not sure this will help - I do experience at some level an awful lot of what you describe with ds1 who wil be 3 in mid july.

however, I've never had experience of the sensory issues, actively working against me when getting him dressed, unless he is just being a pain from time to time, not wanting to be on his own, unable to play on his own.

I know how you say you are feeling because sometimes I have just wanted to scream is this f*ing normal??? from my side of things having no experience of SN I do think there is an awful amount that is probably normal almost 3yr old boys behaviour.

I was told recently that they have a testosterone surge at around 2-2.6 as well as the well known one at 4yr...

will be thinking of you that you get sorted out (ykwim) - keep us posted

does he go to nursery? Ds, 4, is capable of doing any of the things you describe, not all the time, but certainly occasionally. he doesn't go to nursery and i think maybe this has caused problems with fitting in with children he doesn't know, although he now does group things pretty well, but he still has problems with children in the playground. He is also extremely bright and verbal. We also have huge tantrums, though less and less. But he is improving all the time, and I am able to reason with him more and more . Perhaps the same will be true for your ds.

I thought it was normal to have to sit on one end while you dressed the other end but DD1 grew out of it shortly after 3. Also used to say her clothes were hurting her or 'not right'. She never plays alone and is extremely intense but is never agressive so we 'get away with it' IYKWIM. Most people just see the creative, chatty side of her. My folks think I am heading for a nervous breakdown though on the basis of their time with her. I ignore any out of proportion reaction completely which is probably terrible, certainly not saying you should listen to me. Perhaps read 'Raising your Spirited Child'?

The ball thing isn't that odd - there was a thread the other day about selective deafness in toddlers, and I can think of many occasions where I've called dd's name again and again and again with her about 4 feet away, but engrossed in something else.

DD (2.5) was a bit of a stalker, but is changing now. I don't know - from my vast experience of one daughter, your ds sounds not typical, but not really weird either, iyswim - it's like he's just a very intense version of a toddler.

DS is 3.6 and as far as I'm aware NT (only in my very paranoid moments do I really have any fear he's not). From your list, I can pick out some things that sound just like my DS, though there are other things which aren't issues for us:

He has some sensory issues - definitely wind phobia, but not as severe as your DS's. He sometimes does the "You're hurting my hand" thing, though I think this is for effect and attention rather than because he thinks I am actually hurting.

He talks all the time very very loudly

We have had episodes of the screaming in my face while I'm trying to phone / do something. He will also suddenly break out into screeches at the dinner table just to be intensely annoying.

He doesn't have bad tantrums but his equally NT friend has absolute corkers and very tiny things can set him off.

Sometimes he can't wait for food, and will patently whine and beg and scream for things he knows can't possibly be ready. It's not all the time though.

He can be obstructive - really obstructive about getting dressed, but can also dress himself.

Your description of your DS playing his own game while you're trying to get him to join in with a game of catch and him not really taking part could easily be my DS. I sometimes think he intentionally ploughs his own furrow sometimes. Certainly, he regularly announces his determination not to join in with an activity at nursery which you know really he loves. It seems to be cussedness / complete obsession with another activity. If he does this, he genuinely can't be persuaded to join in and will commune with sticks or draw a picture instead. (Or occasionally just sit and shout about how he doesn't want to join in)

It sounds like there are issues there with your DS that need investigating, and it must be terribly stressful for you. But there is also a lot there that, as you say, is part and parcel of parenthood. I hope you can get some sensible help and diagnosis/advice soon.

Well DS is 3 in June and I too can relate to a lot of what you've said. Recently he's become a lot more aggressive and stroppy - doing things like hitting (things fortunately not others), or threatening to hit, or kicking (again things), or saying things like "poke your boobie" over and over - like he's trying to get a reaction. He also wouldn't join in a game of catch if he didn't fancy it - but I probably wouldn't make him either. He certainly gets very whiney and melt-downish near dinner - this is hunger and tiredness combined since dropping his nap - could you try bringing his meal forward a bit in case it's that with meal times? The sensory things I can't relate to so well except DS absolutely HATES the wind - to the point that I have dragged him screaming down the high street before now because I don't think stopping the wind in in a mother's remit!

You sound like you're running out of steam, and I don't blame you - it's a tiring enough age without any worries about them. So I hope you find some answers soon

Impatience for food I can relate to, impatience generally I can relate to. Whining and tantrums ring a bell, but not the sensory stuff and getting dressed and anger and spitting. Sounds a bit unusual but you are getting it looked into.

Have you tried him in a nursery setting to see how he relates to others? It sounds like it is all getting a bit claustrophobic (for you mainly but for him also).

hiya thanks, he goes to nursery one morning a week, we want to increase the sessions but there are no more available til Sept so we have to wait. He is being observed at nursery in the coming weeks by 2 different SN people for investigation.

the thing is the stuff I have talked about he does every day, all day. Obviously interspersed with loveliness and playing nicely with me etc but it is as dependable as the sun rising. Although to be fair the spitting thing only happened once but it really upset me and was just last night so its fresh in my mind.

He is saying he is angry a lot and gritting his teeth and blowing through them in an effort to control his temper, so I really appreciate he is trying. I just dont know what the problem is, he has had to date one of the loveliest most loving childhoods and is an extremely bright, gorgeous, loving child. But he seems so angry and unhappy much of the time and yes I am today very sad and worn out. Am going to bed in about 45 mins and will feel better tomorrow.

If he is bright he may have really strong feelings too.So that would exaggerate the wanting his own way/competitiveness side of things~which they all do at this age btw completely normal.
Also he may have unique habits but not have any sn.
If he is bright he can probably play you a bit[in a nice way] also may not be that bothered about playing with same age as they may not talk as much.Does he enjoy the company of slightly older children more?
He may have bits of him that are very ahead for his age and other bits that aren't.
[sorry, bits means areas of development!]

I don't think not replying to you in a social setting is to do with autism[but not an expert] as he is communicating well with you I wouldn't have thought that it was likely~its a communication disorder so if he communicates well it doesn't matter if he doesn't want to play with your friends dc~he may not be interested.

He is very young still ~i don't want to sound at all patronising but is he your first?tbh it all sounds pretty common for a young child with lots of adult attention who is bright.But of course i may be missing something from another thread,all the best with him

Oh you poor poor thing and I feel I can say this to you because I am going through a very similar thing as well. I have posted a fair bit on SN & NT boards about my 3 (almost 4) yr old DS and I am/have been to hell and back wondering whether this is normal or he has some form of ASD. To be honest I still can't be sure but we are awaiting an appt to find out whether his delayed speech is accounting for the behaviour or not.

Anyway, all I wanted to say is that alot of my stress, sleepless nights and constant tears has all been down to far too much google-ing and applying things to DS and convincing myself he is autistic. I am trying to stop myself but its so hard .

IF it turns out that he is not ASD or SN then this kid is a real piece of work! He has stretched me to breaking point and I never thought it possible. So I guess what I am saying is yes it could be just your DS's personality but you are doing all the right things by getting it checked out and early too, I left it far too long due to the appauling checks carried out down here by HV's etc.

Am sending you a big hug and please feel free to keep in touch if you need to vent as I know how that feels. The is he/isn't he question has driven me to insanity! Good luck,xxx

its ok you dont sound patronising and yes he is my first and last child, we dont want any more. We love him just a totally all consuming way and adore him but he is so full on as a person and requires so much attention, and drains so much energy, we know we couldnt add another child to that. Know when to walk, know when to run.

The specialist who we saw a week ago said he has got some "problems" that need investigating which is the process we are in now. She was trying to talk to him and said a few times "ah there you go I've lost him now" because he was no longer paying her any attention. And he has a lot of anxiety. He is constantly questioning me about whether or not I am happy etc. And she said although he has some sort of speech impairment his vocab is years ahead as well as imagination, processing etc.

thanks Barmy I too have stopped googling. I am just trying to now compare him to other children his age when I have the chance, more than anything else I want to see he is the same. And other than that I am just waiting to hear what they all come up with from these observations. I know what you mean, I do often think "you are just one hell of a piece of work"

So my youngest has SN's and I experienced all of the above with him with the exception of the spitting in my face. Lovely-you want my fingernails-here take some spittle while you're at it! My ds liked to wait until I was driving away in my car and spit at me or throw a rock, perhaps because there was the possible added humiliation, for me, of witnesses. He's an adolescent now and still very sensitive though he has gained full control of his speech and behavior.

I don't know if almost 3 is too young but you could pick ONE behavior and make a behavior modification chart for him and see how that goes. The thing that I found most helpful was to agree on both a reward and a consequence for the desired behavior/departure from desired behavior. IMO, this gave my son a sense of control over his environment which is what I saw the refusal to eat, get dressed etc. as being about, though granted there were physical/mental/emotional control issues underlying.

Your DS's behaviour sounds quite similar to my DS2, who is nearly 5 1/2. From about 3, I knew things were not right but we would have bad times then things would seem to improve a bit and so on - everyone kept on telling me it was just terrible twos/threes but I finally went to the GP and we are now going through the process of getting a diagnosis of Aspergers. It takes a long time and to be honest your DC IS very young - even at 5 1/2 the specialist is saying that she is reluctant to diagnose Aspergers because DS2 is still so young.

Please don't be too hard on yourself, make time for yourself too and like Barmymummy said, don't do too much googling! enjoy the fun things that he does, he sounds like a lovely bright boy.

can I just add what about licking themselves? Do your DC lick themselves?

I am taking DS to GP today to get his ears checked.

I think its easy to pick up on negative quirks and just accept the good things as "normal"~its all a matter of balance.
The worry you feel seems excessive~are you a perfectionist and everything has to be perfect?Maybe he is picking up on your anxiety and tension.Sorry if i'm being harsh but every tiny thing he does or doesn't do shouldn't be analysed~even if he does have a developmental problem.
I mean he will still be your same child with or without a diagnosis~but i think behaviour plans and strategies are useful if what you are doing is not working.
Having said that I strongly believe parents esp mums know best but since I don't know you personally its difficult to know if you are obsessing over quirks or if there is a serious difficulty.Either way I do think you should look after yourself and try not to get all consumed by this which isn't healthy really.
He's a very young child and will change a lot over the next 2 or 3 yrs.
Also you already have assessments going on so wait and see what happens.