DS's speech is not right

[lljkk]

He's nearly 5yo, gets IEP time at school for poor speech. Is on waiting list for NHS speech therapy. His hearing has been tested and came out ok.

NHS assessment mostly just said that he mixed up t and c sounds. But DS speech is so much screwier than that. For instance:

• He can do most the correct sounds at the start of a word, but often leaves them out or skips them in middle/ends of words (but he is getting better over time).

• He often leaves out connecting small words, and I'm not sure he hears other people say them, either.

• He has a very limited vocabulary compared to older siblings at same age.

• Often he tortuously searches for the right word, and then

• when he does find the words he wants, he makes the most bizarre grammarical constructions for sentences. Can be completely incomprehensible.

• We often have bizarre conversations like this: after swimming yesterday DS sat with one of his swim classmates while I queued to ask pool receptionist something. As we walked away we had this chat:

Me: What was the name of your friend?
DS: Who?
Me: That little girl you were talking to.
DS: Who?
Me: The little girl in your swim class who you were talking to?
DS: Who you mean?
Me: That little girl you were talking to -- the little girl you said was dressed like a princess?! And you said she was 4 years old like you?
DS: She not in my class.
Me: She is in your class.
DS: But she not in my class at school!
Me: But she is in your swim class.
DS: Oh.
Me: What is her name?
DS: I don't know.

Conversations like that drive me nuts.
I sometimes wonder if DS has a specific language disorder or is this possibly on the normal spectrum, allowing for 'speech delay'?

Tbh that does sound like a normal conversation even with my ds.....

There is such a variance even with the english language used everyday and how it is spoken that children can easily get things 'wrong' my ds2 he is 13 and sometimes will speak in what we call 'chav-speak'where his words drawl amd all slur we often have to say 'pardon?'...

I dont dispute your ds has a speech delay but generally if his other motorskills are average then he will 'catch up'.

Its very hard not to compare but really you mustnt.

Sorry, no experience of the speech impediments of the type you describe, however I just wanted to say that I wouldn't be too worried about the specific content of the conversation, as this sounds like the sort of conversation I had with my sons at a similar age.

Not unusual to talk to children, but not know their names.
Not unusal for them to get indignant when they get confused by what you're saying (e.g. 'in your class' in this case).

Hope his speech therapy helps with the missing words thing.

I agree with your not unusual list Legacy, but to be doing all of those in addition to missing out verbs "she not in my class" isn't the norm IME. My DS, just turned 5, has similar problems, and having conversations with him can be mystifying and baffling on occasion. Did the SALT look into his understand of language? As that may be one obvious reason for having that sort of conversation if your DS is not quite getting what you are saying, you may find that simplifying your language helps. I've been told my language delayed DS doesn't have a language disorder, because 1)his language didn't develop in the wrong order (not sure I agree with that and 2)because he isn't 2 sets of percentiles below the norm - the norm is 17th percentile with language (so I calculate that to be 2 sets of percentiles below the norm would mean a child who was on 2nd centile, i.e. that out of 100 children, only one would have less developed language than that child).

I can't say I've found teachers/SALTs were particularly interested in whether DS has a delay or disorder, more in dealing with whatever problems he may have rather than the "label" iyswim.

I agree that the content of the conversation sounds normal.

btw you could also try posting this on SN, there are quite a few parents to kids with language problems who post on there.

Thanks 4 replies. He's only had an initial NHS assessment. I'd like to hear more about your DS's speech problems, Totalchaos.

The thing about my example conversation is that ds couldn't connect my question to the little girl he was just speaking to. Or tonite we had:

me: Take your clothes off before you get in the bath.
DS: And my plaster.
Me: Yes. We can put another plaster on after your bath.
DS: Why?

Why did he ask "Why?" when he badly wanted the plaster 2 hours earlier? He seems to lack ability to contextulise in conversations.

What struck me last night is his limited spoken spoken vocabulary, & the way he sometimes struggles to find simple words. Leaving aside his strange grammarical constructs, which I 1st noticed when he was 2. I wish I could think of a good example... (will pay close attention next few hours).

I wonder if he as an auditory processing problem which would not be picked up on a hearing test. Check out this link and see if you think this could help

www.johansensoundtherapy.com/

It's all to do with the area of the brain that deals with sound processing and it not having developed properly, listening treatment can speed up the process of the brain utilising the correct area.

possibly he meant "why" to be why another plaster, not just put the same one back on again after the bath......

DS was only really speaking in single words at 3, so very very behind. He's improved a lot, but only really started speaking in sentences at 4. Both his expressive and receptive language are delayed. E.g. he only recently consistently gets he and she correct in a sentence, he used to muddle them for a long time. Also he doesn't always answer the right question word - you say "what" and he answers to the "where" etc..... I feel that his vocab is limited by comparison to his peers. And he is very good in structured classroom setting at blagging it when he doesn't understand the words used, he just copies what the other kids say/do. There were other pecularities as well with his speech - echolalia - repeating TV scripts at seemingly random moments, and repeating back what you just asked him instead of being able to answer a question

The problem I find with SALT assessments is they tend to be done getting the child to comment/answer questions about a picture they are shown - so less demanding than the give and take of unpredictable day to day conversation.

Bit more about Auditory Processing here

kidshealth.org/parent/medical/ears/central_auditory.html

I am afraid the "why" thing only gets worse as their speech improves!!!! My ds1 is nearly 6 and he must ask "why" about 200 times a day - I am not kidding. Its normal IMO.

He is being referred for speech therapy at school (after I pushed for an SEN assessment) and I am hoping it helps with his reading and writing.

Was he late to talk? Ds1 was 2.5-3 before he talked in sentences and even then he was hard for anyone but me to understand - much better now though.

Thanks again so much for replies!
So much to mull over.
All my dc relatively late speakers. I think DS was saying sentences by 2.5yo or so, but they were weird sentences, like: Car red fast (meaning, "That red car is going fast.")

DS is doing well at literacy at school, though, which doesn't seem to quite fit the APD profile. Still, something to think about.

Things DS has said tonite:

You eating tea later? I bring it to you when you ready.
It fixed!

And more like that, tending to leave out verbs or not get them in right tenses.

Hiya,

like Totalchaos, I'm a regular on the language threads on the special needs board. I agree with her that something's going on here beyond the "t and c sounds" thing and I'm sure school wouldn't have bothered about it if it was just a case of muddling two letters.

I'm wondering if the NHS therapist was sufficiently skilled at judging comprehension and word-finding skills - it's quite a speciality area. Traditional speech therapists tend to focus too much on articulation.

I agree you might find it useful to post in the special needs board but it would be good if you could give more examples.

Also, I've noticed that threads like these always get a majority "oh it's normal" response when started in "behaviour and development" and a majority "yes my child's like this and he has condition XYZ" when posted in "special needs"! Which doesn't mean anyone is wrong or right, just that the experience of the posters on the two boards is different....

With APD it doesn't necessarily affect them in all ways. I have it mildly and have a degree and always took notes easily at lectures etc however I struggle to hear with background noise, regularly transpose writing down numbers, can't learn telephone numbers, can't write down directions (although can read a map easily etc etc) also couldn't learn a foreign language.

It could be worth taking him for an assessment with a Johansen therapist just to rule it all out. With dd although she past the NHS hearing test she doesn't have a hearing curve it's pretty darn flat - in the higher frequency sounds her worst ear isn't hearing until 40 decibels!!!! I'm just that the don't treat SALT issues holistically so much of it is to do with brain development. Dd is starting school in September and I still struggle to understand what she is saying, lots of missed out beginning and endings and several letters she can't say and of course many many cluster sounds missing.

Also check for tongue tie because my DD had this and she sounded exactly as you describe your DS..

There may be other problems but since i found out DS2 was TT, i checked DD, and she was too, i felt soooooo guilty for not finding out and she still has the speech impediment so looking into have TT cut...she's 14.

Good luck finding out whats wrong.

auditory sensory processing
have you looked at the sound centre or the sound and light centre.com or the book the out of sync child has fun on amason
does yr child push his ears in..?
does he pretend not to hear you
it could be difficulty in processing brain to speech function
you need an assesment try CAMHS refewrrral from your gp

pushcar how would CAHMS help this little boy ?

Not camhs, i bet she means SALT the speech and language therapy lol just prob mixed up?

Too many abbreviations a parent has to know nowadays!

Thanks all, DS is due another review imminently, so I will bring up APD then. Yes NHS assessment is mostly based on simple articulation -- it's frustrating.
(to be continued....).

lljkk,

I think you need to aim to get referred to a specialist SALT.

This can be quite tricky I suspect..... you may want to lots of close observations and background reading so you know what to say.....

iljk,

I agree with you I think there is a delay of some sort. My feeling is that it is a mere delay and nothing more complex than that, because I don't think those sentences are bizarre. "Red car fast" at age 2.5 is definitely normal.

It does sound like he has some kind of problem with listening/ hearing/ processing and that's hindering both his understanding and his speech.

Have you read the book "Baby Talk" by Dr Sally Ward? It explains the development of speech, listening and so on and has an easy to follow programme that you can use at home. It's designed for 0-4 years but you can adapt it for older children and the basic principles still stand.

Hi again everyone.
It's a lot to take in.

DS speech does drive me batty, sometimes. But what do you all think would be the outcome if I went for the Do-nothing approach -- just let DS continue to bumble along slowly getting there his own way. Why would this strategy be bad (genuine question)?

I am mulling over getting an assessment from a Johansen Sound therapist (at least, I found one a reasonable travel distance away).

Another example:
~2 months ago DS said to another child
"What is your name?"

I was unbelievably happy -- he spoke clearly, the words were all there, and grammarically correct. Is it indicative of how bad his speech must be that I could get so delighted about a 4.5 yo saying that clearly?