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Help please with jealous, anxious, insecure older child

28 replies

flightattendant19 · 11/04/2009 07:31

Ds1 has been off because of the holidays, and he's being a nightmare.

Every day he is stroppy, grumpy, miserable, keeps hurting himself in the garden, eg by doing power ranger stuff with tent poles, coming in crying every few minutes till I ask him to put the poles away, then he carries on... and hurts his little bro as well, a lot.

If I ask them to stop being silly he says 'ds2 started it' and 'I'm doing what ds2's doing' or 'I want to be like ds2' whom I presume he thinks gets away with everything

To a degree it's true as I can't ask a toddler to stop, he won't understand...so I try and not blame ds1, just ask him to be responsible and help me, and try and make it appealing to be the 'good' one etc - but it ain't working.

Also he does get it in the nexk more, because I know he is capable of behaving better but doesn't.

I've explained that he used to be a rampaging toddler as well, he had a good go at that. I'm trying to have some one on one time with him when posible but toddler is very much around and my mum won't have him on his own.
I had to go on a trip the other day and took toddler with me (nightmare enough!) while ds1 chose to stay with grandma (he had the option to come too) and then he got really really angry that I'd left him behind, although I asked him if he was sure etc etc beforehand. Maybe he felt I didn't want him?

He also cries and panics every time I am not within sight - like if I go to put out the rubbish, or make a cup of tea, he will panic and run round shouting 'mummy!!!' hysterically until he finds me

This isn't usual for him, he seemed happier during term - but maybe it's built up exhaustion? Has anyone been here and what can I do for poor little chap?

Thanks.

OP posts:
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flightattendant19 · 11/04/2009 07:34

He's nearly 6 btw. and the toddler thing, I meant he had a good turn at being one, so I tried to explain he'd already had that freedom as it were, but he can;t get his head around the concept.

I think I need more subtle and gentle methods of reassuring him, somehow..

OP posts:
letswiggle · 11/04/2009 07:47

Can you get someone to look after the little one for a few hours to do s'th by yourself with ds1? Or get him to help you with s'th that ds2 can't do yet, like making biscuits or something?

piscesmoon · 11/04/2009 07:56

Why won't your mum have the younger one on his own? Would she come to your house and look after him while you went out with the older one? Could you have a friend around to play with the older one and hope that he would get invited back?
I think that you need to treat them very differently, according to age. Do things with DS1 when the younger has a nap, if he has one. Give him a much later bedtime and use the time to play games etc. If you have a DP leave him with the younger and do things with the older. If you lump them in together and DS2 needs always come first, DS1 is bound to be jealous. He is more likely to be the responsible older one if he has some privileges with it.

flightattendant19 · 11/04/2009 08:07

Thanks - no, it;s just me, and my mother won't have ds2 on his own - I'm not sure why, and I don't like to press her on this as she is already helpful and will have them both if I need to do something vital without them.

I try to do things with ds1 when ds2 is sleeping but he doesn't sleep that much, and anything we attempt with him awake gets intruded on and ruined.

They can get on very well together but it's very hard to think of a way to focus on ds1 because the toddler simply demands too much attention.

OP posts:
flightattendant19 · 11/04/2009 08:08

Good idea about having a friend round, I suggested this last week but ds1 said' He might not like our house, he might think it's not very tidy'

OP posts:
piscesmoon · 11/04/2009 08:18

It is more of a problem then, but it rather points to the fact that DS1 doesn't get time without DS2. Could you have a friend around for DS1 and go out to the park with a picnic? Any friends to leave DS2 with-even if only for an hour? It think that if he could be the responsible elder brother with pivileges he would be happier.

piscesmoon · 11/04/2009 08:19

Sorry -privileges

flightattendant19 · 11/04/2009 08:24

Yes I get what you mean, thankyou - I need to add some into the equation, definitely. Might help him feel more valued and so on, I needed it pointing out

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piscesmoon · 11/04/2009 08:34

Has he got his own bedroom? If so you could help him tidy it and think of ways of making it special. I don't think it matters so much what you do-it is just a way to make him feel special and able to do things that DS2 doesn't do.

flightattendant19 · 11/04/2009 08:46

Yes he has his own room for sleeping - another cause of consternation, as he recently started sleeping in there rather than in my bed, while ds2 is still bfing all blardy night, and ds1 often creeps in with us around 1am.

I think he feels really rejected, on several fronts. School, bed, trip on the train etc.

Thanks for your help PM.

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piscesmoon · 11/04/2009 08:53

Perhaps someone else will come along with some suggestions-good luck.

flightoftheeasterbunyip · 13/04/2009 21:51

bump, for any other thoughts...he's still really fed up, and looks so tired all the time. He told me he doesn't ever sleep, because he is always worried or dreaming and when we talk about everything at bedtime, it does something to his sleep, I can't remember quite how he put it

Everything is 'not fair' or 'your fault (mine)' and he creeps into my bed most nights.

Could this be just about changing to his own room?

flightoftheeasterbunyip · 13/04/2009 21:56

Lots of stuff about school is surfacing...the other children saying 'Oh I'm miles ahead' when they ask what reading book he is on

and he is terrified of us being late for school, he keeps wanting reassurance that I have got the holiday dates right, and he dreamed about going back and he'd missed so much that he had to catch up on loads and loads of work, and never go out to play and the work was too hard.

This is awful, I remember that anxiety as a child of the work building up into something insurmountable, I mean I was one of the 'top table' types at primary school and even then...how much worse to be behind everyone, as ds is, and feel the weight of inability to meet the teachers' demands.

He must feel like the train is leaving the station without him.

What can I do? He is behind, in the lower range she told me, and I've questioned whether he might be dyslexic, as I suspect it - but she's dismissed that for now saying they treat them all the same.

I wouldn't care if he was happy but the poor kid is terrified. Nightmares about school is nOT GOOD considering I was more keen to HE him than send him to school at all.

flightoftheeasterbunyip · 13/04/2009 22:13

Please help if you can suggest anything.

I am thinking of taking him out again, which I'm not sure would be a good thing for him as he is generally very sociable and I am not. But I find it painful to see him under so much pressure.

jolly978 · 14/04/2009 13:26

Hey, this is my first time on here so I apologise if I get stuff wrong!
I have a 10 year old and a toddler and the same jealous behaviour occuring all the time. It's hard and we try everything we can think of to show her that she's as special as he is. Sometimes it works, most it doesn't. I have nothing to help on this front, it's why I joined...to find solutions myself.
I am however a teacher and I really would not recommend taking yours out of school to HE, I have never met a child who has acheived as much socially or academically when HE as in main stream.
It will take time for him to catch up and get used to how things are done in school, but it will happen.
If you want your son tested for dyslexia the school have a duty to refer him to their SENCO for a test, regardless of age, or you can actually ask your GP to do the test. It's worth talking to the headmaster if you're concerned. Never be afraid about making a fuss. The school is there to help him acheive his best.
I hope this helps?

flightoftheeasterbunyip · 14/04/2009 16:50

Thankyou Jolly and welcome , I will certainly press for a bit more help for him.

Actually my mother said something - she said you don't want him to have to do more, or work even harder as he is learning at a good rate - it's more a question of the school accepting him at the level he is at, and not making him 'catch up' with everyone else.

Somehow though I really doubt the school is interested in treating everyone as an individual, as they have to make sure everyone is the same. That's the whole point, isn't it - standards need to be reached.

I guess the school couldn't function otherwise.

LRB978 · 14/04/2009 18:55

Flight

This is likely to be long, I don't do short posts . Am talking as a single mum of an anxious boy and the eldest in a family, so can sympathise with you and ds1.

When did you and your ex split, if you don't mind me asking? Has ds1's anxiety worsened since then? I only ask cos my ds (7) has really bad anxiety, related to things leaving (me, my family, old toys, books, broken furniture, the sticker the dentist gave him ......) and I think it mainly relates back to his uncle, brother and dad leaving his immediate circle in the space of about 8 months.

Anxiety. You may find it helps if you tell ds1 what you are going to do. 'DS1 I am just going to make a cup of tea/put the washing away/put the rubbish out'. It sounds as though he is anxious you are going to leave, and this may well help (especially if you check he has heard you by getting him to repeat it back). It may sound daft, but ds has got to the stage now where I only tell him if I go out the house, the rest of the time he may shout to find out where I am but doesnt have meltdowns because I am not where he expects me to be.

School. This is potentially ringing bells for me, although probably only because of ds's recent experience. It may well be your ds1's anxiety again, but may not be. Which year is he in (1 or 2)? Is he being kept in because he isn't getting his work done? Is he getting any support as he is behind his peers? How far behind is he? DS is starting a new school after Easter due to issues like these. I am not saying your ds is in anything like a situation as bad, but if you want to look here you will see the issues and advice I got about it. (If you don't feel its applicable, don't look, but I am a little worried for your ds, though I do worry easily anyway )

Bedtime/sleep. I have finally given in and ds and I now share a room, albeit in seperate beds. Would you consider this? It may give your ds1 the peace of mind that you are still going to be there in the morning, or that his brother isn't pushing him out, or both. It will probably help the sleep all of you get, and may help improve moods during the day as sleep will be less broken. If you keep his bedroom there, make it his special space, you may find as his anxiety lessens he will spend more time in there and eventually sleep there of his own accord.

Do ds1 and ds2 go to bed at the same time? If so, could ds1 stay up for 30 mins or so after ds2 goes down, and you have some special time with him then, even just a cuddle and a story on the sofa?

When the boys are doing something together, do you tell them both to stop, or just ds1? Eg playing power rangers, if you say 'ds1 and ds2, can you stop doing that please' (or whatever) it will help ds1 feel less singled out, and ds2 may listen as well. If not, you can at least praise ds1 for doing as he is told (as long as he does), so he feels he is being noticed for the good as well.

Would your mum be willing to come and spend some time at yours with you and both boys, so each can have 1-1 at the same time. That way ds2 can be occupied and ds1 can have grown up activities to do. Even quick simple things like icing and decorating a cheap pack of biscuits, but something ds2 is 'too young to do' (even if not strictly true). Preferably your mum could spend time with ds2 so you can with ds1.

How old is ds2? Is he still in a highchair? If so, could you give him something to occupy himself in there, whilst you and ds1 do some baking or similar. Maybe you could make pizza for tea one night (whilst ds2 samples some of the toppings maybe??), or bake a cake.

Lastly, some children cope better when out of the school routine than others. I remember my dbro being a nightmare in the holidays, and ds is harder when he doesnt have his set routine, so the holidays may be causing him to be worse than normal as well.

piscesmoon · 14/04/2009 19:23

I am glad you got some more replies, it is strange that some threads take off and others are slow.
I would go and talk to his teacher. The school is interested in individuals, that is why teachers do the job-it is the government that wants everyone to jump through the same hoops. At the end of year 6 they will be trying to get everyone to a level 4 for the league table but you are a long way off that and hopefully they will have been abolished by then. Tell the teacher that he is anxious and having nightmares. Find out how far he is behind and make her give more detail.If he is giving cause for concern he should have an IEP and extra support. It would help if she knew that he was a worrier.
I wouldn't take him out, a lot of the problem is that he is always with the younger one. I was the eldest of 3 and always the one who had to be responsible and 'should know better'-sometimes you just want to be the baby!
I still think the answer is to treat him very differently from the younger one and make sure that he has priviledges and some of your undivided time.

moosemama · 14/04/2009 19:54

My DS1 (aged 7) is like this about DS2 (aged 5) although strangely not about DD (12 weeks).

I haven't got much advice, as we are still working through it with our boys but wanted to recommend this book which I found at the library a couple of weeks back and seems to have made a genuine difference to DS1. Its as if after we read it he realised how much I do love him even if I don't always have the time to show it or tell him.

Shylily · 14/04/2009 21:27

Has anyone recommended reading 'Siblings Without Rivalry'(Faber and Mazlish)? I found it really useful.
It has so many suggestions that I won't role them all out here, but it's really easy to read and has comic strips at the end of each chapter which helps if you're a bit knackered (as I usually am).
Good luck and I hope it improves soon.

flightoftheeasterbunyip · 15/04/2009 08:25

Hello, and many thanks for all the replies, I really needed some help and have got it in spades

Moose and Shy those look like lovely books, I will look for them in town and have a sly read

Pisces, thanks, I will try and remember he needs to be 'little' as well - have been treating him much more gently this week, lots of picking up and cuddles and sitting on my lap. We usually get a bit of time at bedtime, when he tells me stuff and we muck about and giggle.

LRB thankyou for such a helpful, considered post - lots of great points. I hdn't thought about the fear of leaving element like that - his father never lived with us, and only stayed a few times when ds was little, so he barely remembers him - however he knows about him and perhaps this makes him worry that i'll go too.
We did move house last year, which he was upset about - though only across town, and we still see my parents regularly. Maybe this had something to do with it - he didn't want to leave the old house behind.
I will make sure he has heard me next time I tell him I'm going out of into another room etc. I think I was getting quite frustrated with his behaviour so wasn't as careful as I ought to have been - you know when you reach that point where everything you do seems to upset him, and you feel you can't be or do whatever it is he needs despite your efforts. Well I have to fight that giving up feeling, as he obviously does need something and I remember having separation anxiety and mum getting angry about it so that's something not to repeat!!

School is a bit tricky, I'll let them know he is getting upset in case it helps. Last night he asked me to talk to his teacher. He said he has to stay in a lot of playtimes because he is too slow, and if you finish your work during playtime you get to go out, but if it takes you the whole of playtime you don't get to go outside

Boys so need playtime.

He said last time it happened, he said to her 'I don't mind if I don't get to go outside' and she said 'Yes you do!!' in a cross way, or it might have been 'I do!' meaning she doesn't want to have to stay in with him.(Can't figure out if he understood it right) He was most unhappy about this, and said she was 'fibbing' to him as he genuinely didn't mind.

I hate the idea that he is always last to finish therefore gets 'punished' just for not being very quick at writing, also the stigma of his mates knowing he';s slow therefore not out playing with them.

I need to have words with the teacher but what can I say? She is ultra confident, set in her ways type who will usually dismiss my comments as though I too am a child, and she knows what's what.

flightoftheeasterbunyip · 15/04/2009 08:25

Hello, and many thanks for all the replies, I really needed some help and have got it in spades

Moose and Shy those look like lovely books, I will look for them in town and have a sly read

Pisces, thanks, I will try and remember he needs to be 'little' as well - have been treating him much more gently this week, lots of picking up and cuddles and sitting on my lap. We usually get a bit of time at bedtime, when he tells me stuff and we muck about and giggle.

LRB thankyou for such a helpful, considered post - lots of great points. I hdn't thought about the fear of leaving element like that - his father never lived with us, and only stayed a few times when ds was little, so he barely remembers him - however he knows about him and perhaps this makes him worry that i'll go too.
We did move house last year, which he was upset about - though only across town, and we still see my parents regularly. Maybe this had something to do with it - he didn't want to leave the old house behind.
I will make sure he has heard me next time I tell him I'm going out of into another room etc. I think I was getting quite frustrated with his behaviour so wasn't as careful as I ought to have been - you know when you reach that point where everything you do seems to upset him, and you feel you can't be or do whatever it is he needs despite your efforts. Well I have to fight that giving up feeling, as he obviously does need something and I remember having separation anxiety and mum getting angry about it so that's something not to repeat!!

School is a bit tricky, I'll let them know he is getting upset in case it helps. Last night he asked me to talk to his teacher. He said he has to stay in a lot of playtimes because he is too slow, and if you finish your work during playtime you get to go out, but if it takes you the whole of playtime you don't get to go outside

Boys so need playtime.

He said last time it happened, he said to her 'I don't mind if I don't get to go outside' and she said 'Yes you do!!' in a cross way, or it might have been 'I do!' meaning she doesn't want to have to stay in with him.(Can't figure out if he understood it right) He was most unhappy about this, and said she was 'fibbing' to him as he genuinely didn't mind.

I hate the idea that he is always last to finish therefore gets 'punished' just for not being very quick at writing, also the stigma of his mates knowing he';s slow therefore not out playing with them.

I need to have words with the teacher but what can I say? She is ultra confident, set in her ways type who will usually dismiss my comments as though I too am a child, and she knows what's what.

flightoftheeasterbunyip · 15/04/2009 08:26

Aw bugger

It said MN was broken!!!

nickschick · 15/04/2009 08:52

Jolly978- Im not wanting to cause a row on someone elses thread but I disagree with your comment on H.E.

Flight- I think your ds is very like my ds1 just sensitive to change in all forms and he has had a lot of changes hasnt he,because my eldest 2 ds were v close in age I always used to make the most of any second alone with them and love them up and tell them 'they were the best 6 yr old in the world' etc.

I think at 6 the school routine can be quite monotonous and when theres a holiday its almost as if they need to be timetable to become regular children again- I too hated the thoughts of my ds having to stay in at breaks even tho eldest ds2 didnt mind nd I asked the teacher if he could bring unfinished work home to complete at night.
Perhaps hes just not 'hit it off' with his teacher and next school year will be better?

This is only a thought but if hes finding it hard to find his place in the playground could he be using 'school yard tactics'when he plays with his brother.....not intentionally hurting him but playing in a similar style to the more outward boys to kind of test the water?

I dont think his comments at your house not being very tidy were aimed at that I think he isnt very confident in making the steps to get a friend and was looking at anything that he thought might stand in his way.

Is there a local pak where the children go after school? a few trips there might help him feel more confident with his classmates- is there any you could invite back to yours or go for a coffee and a milkshake with?

What about collections -is there any playground fad on? like football cards or dr who cards???
Anything that will help him be part of the 'group'.

Also if your mum will have him but not the baby do you think he feels half yours half hers???

flightoftheeasterbunyip · 15/04/2009 09:45

Thanks Nickschick and I agree Jolly's view on HE isn't one I'd like to post on the hE board - words 'shot' 'down' &'flames' spring to mind! Jolly - no offence

Your bit about him being 'half yours half hers' is spot on. She feels a sense of 'ownership' and is very close to ds1, while ds2 is much less on her radar. Conversely I am closer to ds2 in a way, though I try to hide this and put in the extra effort with ds1, to compensate.

So it's all very confusing!

I'll try and get a few play dates organised so he gets more confidence, I think - if he's shared his toys and been 'accepted' out of school he won't feel so alone I think.

thanks xx