Behaviour expectations for a nearly 3 yr old? And appropriate consequences?

[Lawks]

I feel a bit isolated, parenting-wise, so it helps to run things by mumsnet.

The other day I noticed my nearly 3 yr old feeding her baby brother sand from the sand pit . I explained to her that was not a great idea, and told her that she was not to do it. She completely understood, and has referred back to it a couple of times ("babies eat food and milk don't they Mummy, not sand").

Today she was putting sand into her new paddling pool. She knows that she mustn't do that. I stopped her, and reminded her that sand is not for going in the paddling pool. She agreed and listed a few other places that sand doesn't go ("Not on the table, and not in the house, and not in the pushchair...")

Not 10 minutes later I look out to see her sitting in the empty paddling pool, spoon feeding her brother sand!

Gahhh.

I was cross. I put her up in her room (because I couldn't immediately think of a direct consequence, and I just wanted to put her somewhere while I cleaned up ds). She shrieked and wailed, but it was all for show. It has taken me a loooooong time to believe that she can cry for show.

I went up and explained to her that because she had fed sand to her brother, and put more sand in the p. pool, I was going to take her new p. pool away. She was quite interested in this. Not remotely upset or bothered. Fascinated to know where I would put it. Enjoyed telling me that because she had fed ds sand, I had taken the p. pool away. Hasn't mentioned it since.

I don't feel that the 'no sand in p. pool or in brother's mouth' message has got through.

This is a very typical situation for us.

Am I too soft? Or are my expectations too high? Or is this just how it is with a nearly 3 yr old?

i think the key (well it is with my DS nearly 3) is finding the thing that really bothers them. DS hates having priviledges taken away, but isn't that bothered by some other punishments. She might not actually be bothered about the pool as she has other toys but another punishment would work.

i'd do it the total other way round. so she wants to feed with the sand. has she a doll she could feed instead? show her how to make a sand cake or whatever and get her to feed the doll. i assume you've explained why she shouldn't feed sand to her brother?

the punishment of taking the pool away makes no sense in relation to the 'crime' iyswim. which is why she's so entertained by you doing such an odd thing.

why musn't she put sand in the pool? what did you say about this? could she have a bowl of water to mix sand and water if she maybe wanted to see what would happen?

The only thing that genuinely bothers her is to take her comfort blanket away, and I won't do that. Taking away toys or priviledges doesn't bother her a hoot. She doesn't like having 'a talking to', but I don't like that either.

Norah, I think you're on to something. Re-reading my OP, I'm on a negative bent aren't I. Alternatives are good. They work well with her too.

So does that mean no getting cross ever? Always provide an alternative? She enjoys breaking rules, and there have to be some rules. I will relax the sand rules though - on reflection, they're silly. It's just a pita for me to have to constantly clean up sand. Not unreasonable of her to want to play sand.

How about when she dips her hands in yogurt and wipes them on the wall, grinning to see what I'll do?

She's so interested in making me cross.

you need alfie kohn

the biggy is picking your battles and put yourself in her shoes. think to yourself why is she wanting to do that? so she wants to put yoghurt on the wall..well that is kind of fun isn't it? for her i mean, not you obviously! so what could she do instead to satisfy that? finger painting? cornflour play? if she gets this sort of satisfaction from other things she will perhaps be less tempted to make a mess with things you'd rather she didn't.

also, the other biggy is to get her to behave how you want her to behave because she understands why she should, not through threat of a punishment. that way you're setting her up to make good decisions for herself. so it will make you rethink why you're asking her not to do things..especially when it's just so you don't have to clear up

LOL because it is just the defiant 3yo
My dd1 is the same age. She knows not to hit, push, tease the cat etc but still does it for attention (since dd2 when the problems started)
We also have complete meltdown when told off, all completely for effect and promptly stops if she gets her own way Needless to say ours is a very loud house atm as she rarely gets her own way.
Breath in and repeat 'this is just a phase, it will pass.......'

if she is so interested in making you cross have you tried just walking away. take her away from whatever it was she was doing that you don't want her too, tell her why and then go into another room or something so basically she isn't getting a reaction. it might become very boring for her, then when she is doing something good praise it to the hilt and give her loads of attention.

here you are

I agree it is completely normal for children to want to mix materials such as sand and water. Why not get a sand and water table and have the rule that sand stays in the table area but she can mix it.
Messy play with pasta and water, cornflour and water, outdoor painting the fence with water or yoghurt and hose it down are all good fun Make the rule that messy play is for outdoors which will hopefully stop her doing it inside iyswim.

agree that relaxing expectations is always good. Sand in the empty paddling pool - no prob. Not worth fighting over.

I personally don't agree with finding the thing that 'bothers' them and taking that away because IMHO it smacks of being too vindictive. It's not about making them feel bad, it's just about showing them the consequence to the action. Basically take the sand away if she feeds it to her brother. Also I think putting her in her room for a couple of minutes time out after a misdemeanour is fine.

If she's interested in making you cross then don't give her the satisfaction, either do as ruddynorah suggests and give positive alternatives or calmly take away her ability to do what ever it was either by removing her or removing the thing.

I strongly believe you do not have to get them to be really upset for them to learn boundaries. Often their natural instinct is to fight back by seeming defiant or not to care, that's just human nature; but if you are giving a natural consequence, they ARE learning.

At this age too, the most important things I found were almost constant supervision (still too young to be sensible, you just can't leave them alone and not expect trouble) and also, very very positive loving attention at all times, because if you remember to be very warm and loving then you give yourself strategy number one - suddenly becoming stern and giving 'the look' can actually mean alot when the rest of the time you're extremely loving and positive and smiley. It's so useful. Sometimes 'the look' is enough! makes the day go a lot easier, IMO, if you have that in your back pocket

HTH

If the problems started when dc2 arrived I'd bet quite a lot that much of this is to get your undivided attention when you tell her off. You could use ignoring her as punishment i.e. withdrawing the thing she wants - attention.

Also try giving her a bit more positive attention (not saying you aren't and I know this can be really hard with a new baby). Maybe have a golden half hour if poss where if she's been good all day she gets special time just with you (if this is possible and eg. your dp gets home before bedtime to take the baby).

ignoring her is just telling her if you don't do as i say i want nothing to do with you. which fair enough if that's how you feel..but it doesn't teach much about compromise, disagreements, or real consequences of actions. if anything it teaches them that if you disagree with someone, then ignore them..which i expect you find your child does to you too.

All good and interesting advice. Thank you.

I'm not sure where I stand on ignoring as a punishment / consequence. It feels wrong. It feels mean. It does work, but it doesn't seem to sit comfortably with us at all, so I don't like to do it.

What I really like is to explain why we do or do not do things. She likes the explanations. She understands the explanations. Then she does something anyway - I think she's just testing out my explanation for herself. Which is a good thing, and I love that she is curious and doesn't take my word for things. It does mean though that we often find ourselves in a situation where she does something immediately after I expressly explain that we don't do it.

I must change this, so we don't keep ending up there.

Baby brother is not new baby. He's nearly 1. She is definitely struggling a bit with his monopoly of my time, and more particularly with the fact that he's allowed to do things that she isn't. He throws his bowl on the floor and I just give it back to him. She throws her bowl on the floor and I tell her not to. How do I deal with this better? I don't think the way forward is to let her do everything a baby does.

X-posts with last 2 posts. Including the one telling me not to analyse so much .

Complete sympathy from me as we have the same age gap between our girls.
dd1 gets privalages such as going to bed later, so 30 mins of our sole time. DD2 was allowed to do things that she doesn't, although now she is 1 I have started telling her off for bowl/food throwing/hitting/biting/pestering generally. This will hopefully make dd1 realise that they are treated more equally since dd2 has more understanding now.
She does things like asks to go to pre-school in the pram, to be cuddled like a baby, refusal to feed herself and wants me to do it, wants pullups taken off using the changing mat What is the best thing to do? I have no idea! Indulge occasionally but that becomes an expectation rather than an exception iyswim. Don't indulge at all and cope with toddler who is wanting to be independent but craving my attention due to me having to be everywhere with dd1 or she gets into so much mischief.
Tis hard, but it will pass and she will outgrow it eventually.

I'm with ruddy and slowreading, completely. Do read Alfie Kohn, seriously. If you're uncomfortable with the whole tit-for-tat punishment thing, it will completely make sense to you and life will become a whole lot nicer (though not necessarily instantly easier!).

A concept I still find useful is the idea of POOR IMPULSE CONTROL. Your DD knows not to feed sand to her brother, but when the impulse comes over her she simply cannot control it. She's not old enough to. One day she will be. And if you're positive and empathetic with her, your messages will start to get through.

HTH

PS Lawks you sound like a lovely, thoughtful mum

Thank you Franch, that's a lovely thing to hear .

I will look for Alfie Kohn in the library. Am not generally a fan of parenting books, but there are some gooduns out there so I'll give him a go.

Dillyday - yes, the wanting to behave like a baby. Grunting and slapping and snatching - not okay behaviour in a 3 yr old, but it's all to be like the baby, rather than nything else. Difficult. Repeat the mantra - this too shall pass.

I do like the idea of poor impulse control. It makes sense. And that will help me react better too, because I am much better at dealing with things I can rationalise.

the good thing with alfie is it's not like a parenting book. if anything it just refocuses you and helps you see why you don't fully accept the ideas of naughty steps etc.

Message withdrawn

Also, remember to make a fuss when she is doing something good.

I have to look hard, but I do see DD1 doing nice things with DD2 (stroking her head gently for example) and I quickly comment and give her a kiss or cuddle.

If she does something really nice like lending her sister one of her toys without being prompted, then she might even get a treat.

You have to reinforce the good as well as punishing the bad.

if you do it alfie style then you'd do neither nigglewiggle so no punishing and no rewarding.

No idea what alfie is (clearly) just giving my own suggestion.

no rewards? not for any outstanding behaviour?

nope. no star charts, no marble jars.