Behaviour expectations for a nearly 3 yr old? And appropriate consequences?

[Lawks]

I feel a bit isolated, parenting-wise, so it helps to run things by mumsnet.

The other day I noticed my nearly 3 yr old feeding her baby brother sand from the sand pit . I explained to her that was not a great idea, and told her that she was not to do it. She completely understood, and has referred back to it a couple of times ("babies eat food and milk don't they Mummy, not sand").

Today she was putting sand into her new paddling pool. She knows that she mustn't do that. I stopped her, and reminded her that sand is not for going in the paddling pool. She agreed and listed a few other places that sand doesn't go ("Not on the table, and not in the house, and not in the pushchair...")

Not 10 minutes later I look out to see her sitting in the empty paddling pool, spoon feeding her brother sand!

Gahhh.

I was cross. I put her up in her room (because I couldn't immediately think of a direct consequence, and I just wanted to put her somewhere while I cleaned up ds). She shrieked and wailed, but it was all for show. It has taken me a loooooong time to believe that she can cry for show.

I went up and explained to her that because she had fed sand to her brother, and put more sand in the p. pool, I was going to take her new p. pool away. She was quite interested in this. Not remotely upset or bothered. Fascinated to know where I would put it. Enjoyed telling me that because she had fed ds sand, I had taken the p. pool away. Hasn't mentioned it since.

I don't feel that the 'no sand in p. pool or in brother's mouth' message has got through.

This is a very typical situation for us.

Am I too soft? Or are my expectations too high? Or is this just how it is with a nearly 3 yr old?

no punishments sounds bonkers to me. So at what point to children learn that behaviors have consequences? no wonder society is going to the dogs.

Op - I think it depends on the severity of the behavior as to the severity of the punishment. I did once take my ds' comforter - his bear away. he had been tormenting the dog. He had been told again, and again, and again not to do it. He'd been shut in spare room, had had toys taken away, endless talkings to about how if he kept on and the dog got fed up and ended up snapping the dog would be taken away and still he carried on (he was three at the time).

So as last resort I took his bear away. He had plenty of other cuddly toys that he could sleep with that night, so he was not without comfort, just not with his favourite.

And you know what - he didn't do it again.

Sometimes there is an absolute last resort, and for me that was it. But the behavior was totally unacceptable and warrented a harsh response.

But as i said, it should always depend on the severity of the behavior as to the severity of the consequence.

The 'Alfie' goal, wannaBe, is a society where we do the right thing because we understand why it's right - not because we fear reprisals (or are addicted to praise). Where we do it even when no one's watching ...

Couldn't, wouldn't do as you describe. Not judging - just depends what you're comfortable with. ruddy's right - the Kohn book doesn't give parenting techniques or quick fixes - it just gives parents like Lawks the confidence to get in touch with their instincts and chuck things like the naughty step out of the window. What a relief that was for me

Can't really see the problem with praising good behaviour. How else do they 'understand why it is right"

Lots of talking and empathy niggle

Must admit I do still praise my girls tbh - tho it's more about who they are than about obedience and achievement - but I don't do treats etc for good behaviour

i behave generally well, even when people aren't looking, but i still like it when people say that something i did was nice/good. why wouldn't you want to praise your children?

cos you want them to do what's right because it is what's right, not because they want praise. if they do things for other people's praise then that's just doing things to please other people..getting their feeling of self worth from other people. i know many many people find this total bollox though!!

with regards understanding consequence..well the consequence is surely whatever happens. not some arbitrary punishment a parent comes up with.

i actually want dd to question 'rules' and think for herself what's right, not just do as i say cos i say so. i am not always right. no one is.

i am confused though, how do they know what is right if nothing happens: no praise, no action as a result of something they have done?

I think I'll stick with my approach as it seems to work for us. It's interesting to hear different ideas though.

you talk to them mainly, and listen to them.

you think about why you don't want them to do something. a lot of the time it's stuff to make your own life easier, which is fine if that's how you want to play it. for me, the consequences are what they are. if she won't wear a coat she gets cold. me saying she can't go to the park or whatever is pointless. i will however carry her coat for when she realises she's cold if she wastes her sand by pouring it in the bin then that's her consequence. i would maybe give her some containers to do pouring with instead. that kind of thing. just trying to understand her.

How do you deal with aggression towards a sibling then?

ask why they do it. talk through why not to do it. eliminate the causes of it. provide positive alternatives. etc!

Choufleur - no praise does not mean no feedback. So rather than saying Good Girl/boy when a child (for example) clears away their toys, you could say 'that makes it look tidier, doesn't it?' - or - 'Thankyou for helping me clear the floor, now I can vacuum.' or even 'That looks better - and you will be able to find all your Lego next time you want to play with it'

choufleur - here's an example: child shares with friend. Friend feels good, is happy, they have fun together. That's the reward. Child is not doing it with one eye on me, hoping for a treat or some extra affection.

niggle - like ruddy says, you talk, listen, try to understand. In the immediate moment, obviously you step in and protect the sibling. Personally I do a lot of pointing out sibling's distress, in order to encourage empathy.

She does it because she is jealous of the attention her sister gets. I can't eliminate that. Positive alternative to sitting on her sister..........sitting on a cushion......don't think she'd go for that .

I do talk through why it's not a kind thing to do and I talk about her feelings. But she gets a warned and if she does it again she will be sent to her room to think about it.

This approach works, she understands the negative consequences to her sister, but this needs reinforcing with a negative consequence for her. Feeling bad about hurting her sister is not enough of a disincentive.

This strikes me as a strategy that has merits for dealing with one child, for minor behavioural issues within the home environment, but may have limitations beyond this.

i'm somewhere in the middle. it depends on what the behavious is in our house. i thank ds for doing things, like tidying toys and make him understand why it's good to do it. If i think he did a good job doing something then he gets praise too. i do think there are some things that need a consequence, aggressive behaviour for example. DS understands why not to hit (it hurts, is nasty unwanted bahavious) so if he hits then there is a punishment. I don't think at three that you can elimnate the cause of all bad behaviour, some things they just do on impulse and have to learn that it is not acceptable.

everyone is different though - it works for us. DS is generally a nice, considerate little boy who had empathy for others.

The thing with unconditional parenting is, niggle, it's a long term thing. If you're looking for quick fixes, this is not for you. It's more about allowing responsible people to develop than about controlling your kids.

oh - don't think teaching is the same thing as controlling.

I do feel the need to control my DD1 when she is trying to hurt DD2. Otherwise she is given latitude to explore and develop - I like that part of the theory. I also like to explain about feelings and consequences, but some things need a more immediate and firm intervention.

Do those of you using this technique have more than one child, out of interest?

Interesting thread.

Although I don't think we follow it exactly, I like the AK approach. I have 3 dc but my ds (dc2) was the one who really tested my parenting and made me realise I needed to find an alternative to the way I was brought up. He doesn't respond well to praise or punishment. I think he does nice things because he wants to and not for reward. Today he shared his sweets with his sister and told me it gave him a nice feeling to be kind to her . Then granny ruined it all by telling him that because he had been so good we were going to soft play, and look, see what happens when you are nice?!

We were going anyway, and he knew that. And I would still have gone even if he hadn't shared his sweets.

I think that what people on both sides of the fence are saying is that you parent according to the child.

Niggle - if sending your dd to her room is something that works for both of you, then great. What prompted this thread in the first place is that this has absolutely no effect on my dd. She is not distressed by it, doesn't find it funny, isn't bothered in the least. She's interested, and watches me with polite fascination as I try and navigate her behaviour.

Rewards don't appeal to her either. Truly they don't.
Me: If you do X, then we can do Y.
Her: .
Her own behaviour is more of a reward to her than anything I can come up with.

The end goal for all of us is a child who behaves in a way that is sociable, useful and helpful to them. I think in our case, me working on my understanding of her behaviour is going to be the most helpful way forward. I want to work with her, as a way of life.

niggle - don't know about the others but yes, I have two DDs, 19 months apart. As I said, yes, I do of course step in immediately if one of them is being hurt. But the follow-up is talking and listening, not punishment.