Girls v Boys

[Kmg]

My son is 3.5 and many of his first friends, (and mine), were girls (and mums of girls), but now I find us diverging more and more. I can understand that at this age boys and girls may have different interests, and different play needs, but it's the parent's attitude that annoys me. I have two boys, (and they certainly are an exhuberant handful at times), several of my friends have two girls (with a wider age gap too). I find that mums of girls seem to get less tolerant of boys' behaviour as the months go on.

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I think we all agree that Ikea can be a totally hideous experience but don't we all need to learn at some stage that a hysterical tantrum isn't an acceptable response to it?

To be absolutely accurate, Croppy, the tantrum happened in the park. I won't comment more on the Ikea incident - though, of course everyone else can debate it till the cows come home if you wish! It's not fair for me to do so. I know all the people involved and Gucci told me about it at the time. However I was not there to witness it, and I definitely do not want to be a mouthpiece for Gucci.

So to draw a veil over Gucci and her daughter, I'd like to add my views on 7 year olds behaving well when they are faced with a boring excursion - shopping, visiting elderly relatives, going to the bank etc.

I think it's not at all unreasonable to expect a 7 year old to behave well in these situations.I work full time so my son has to accept that at weekends his free time is also my free time - and my husbands. If we need new curtains then boring visits to curtian shops may, I'm afraid, be fitted into his own play-filled agenda. And persish the thought, sometimes I'll organise a trip that's going to be much more fun for me than him - like a visit to a few Covent Garden shops for a pair of new shoes. Sometimes his father or the Bluewater Playclub step in to make his life fun again, but if this is impossible, I don't automatically cancel my plans.

However, big however, he gets to do something for him afterwards - or gets a treat. We make this compromise and he knows the promised treat will not materialise UNLESS he's been good in the boring bit. And the boring bit always comes first.

I'm not saying this is foolproof. My son has been awful on occasion. But I know he knows that the world doesn't always revolve around him and his needs. A lesson, I think at 7 years, he should learn.

I had a major tantrum from my 9 yr old yesterday, on the way to swimming lessons. I handled it badly - caused it even.

I picked the boys (2 sons, 1 friend) up straight from school to go - I usually give them something to eat on the way, but at the moment I am just dragging from one day to another and had not got organised. So I said I'd get something from the baker's on the way. Then they all started arguing with each other over silly picky things, and I got cross: my one afternoon off work, and they have to bicker constantly.

I explained this, and that I was tired and unwell, and they said they would stop - and just as I was about to pay for 3 buns, eldest son started again and flicked his brother's friend hard, who started to cry etc.

(I have to say he cries at the drop of a hat, and is somehow very provoking - never says thank you, takes everything for granted, and my boys have picked up that I don't appreciate this. They keep telling him to be nicer to his (really nice) mum, and to say thank you when people do things for him!). I lost it and said 2 buns only, you're not getting one as you have started all that again.

Eldest son ran off in a fury (only round the corner). We found him, and he followed us the 5 minute walk to the pool howling about how I hate him. He refused to go in, howling and howling, until I lost my temper, flung the paper down on the floor at his feet (if you're going to throw something make it something safe!) and ORDERED him into the pool.

He stormed off saying he was going to drown himself. I went and watched from the cafe (I have to say he swam better and faster than I've ever seen him - must have been working off all that aggression). He was reasonably OK afterwards, and apologised once we got to McDonald's (takes too long to get 3 hungry boys home) and realised he had been promoted to an adult meal instead of a happy meal - sat with me instead of with the little boys. Said that he knew really that we did love him.

So what I want is some advice please. Is this childish behaviour? Adolescent behaviour? Normal behaviou even though not acceptable?

I stirred it all up I know but why was it all boiling away so that it came up so fast? Was I too tough on 'no bun for you'? Am I excusing too much? How do I stop it escalating? How do I stop it happening? Am I doing everything wrong?

I had a major tantrum from my 9 yr old yesterday, on the way to swimming lessons. I handled it badly - caused it even.

I picked the boys (2 sons, 1 friend) up straight from school to go - I usually give them something to eat on the way, but at the moment I am just dragging from one day to another and had not got organised. So I said I'd get something from the baker's on the way. Then they all started arguing with each other over silly picky things, and I got cross: my one afternoon off work, and they have to bicker constantly.

I explained this, and that I was tired and unwell, and they said they would stop - and just as I was about to pay for 3 buns, eldest son started again and flicked his brother's friend hard, who started to cry etc.

(I have to say he cries at the drop of a hat, and is somehow very provoking - never says thank you, takes everything for granted, and my boys have picked up that I don't appreciate this. They keep telling him to be nicer to his (really nice) mum, and to say thank you when people do things for him!). I lost it and said 2 buns only, you're not getting one as you have started all that again.

Eldest son ran off in a fury (only round the corner). We found him, and he followed us the 5 minute walk to the pool howling about how I hate him. He refused to go in, howling and howling, until I lost my temper, flung the paper down on the floor at his feet (if you're going to throw something make it something safe!) and ORDERED him into the pool.

He stormed off saying he was going to drown himself. I went and watched from the cafe (I have to say he swam better and faster than I've ever seen him - must have been working off all that aggression). He was reasonably OK afterwards, and apologised once we got to McDonald's (takes too long to get 3 hungry boys home) and realised he had been promoted to an adult meal instead of a happy meal - sat with me instead of with the little boys. Said that he knew really that we did love him.

So what I want is some advice please. Is this childish behaviour? Adolescent behaviour? Normal behaviou even though not acceptable? Or is something really wrong?

I stirred it all up I know but why was it all boiling away so that it came up so fast? Was I too tough on 'no bun for you'? Am I excusing too much? How do I stop it escalating? How do I stop it happening? Am I doing everything wrong?

I don't know how I posted that twice! The only difference is that in the second one I wondered if things are seriosuly wrong ....

Croppy, I look after 2 children, the girl has just turned 8. I have an awful time with her sometimes, exactly the same tantrums as you have experienced. I too stop her having things, but only things that I know she would really like but not difficult for her not to have, ie her sweets are a good one. This tends to work, but she does have them quite freqeuently. She says she doesnt know whayt comes over it just happens. She always apologises. She too has threatened to throw herself down the stairs to kill herself and that I hate her. Apparently her brother was the same at that age and it doesnt last. It does seem to be worse if she has something coming up that she is abit nervous about.

I hace two boys I admit still quite young, but as young as they are they are both completely different characters, so I do not think that it is just down to the sex of the child. I have to say if I am running late or abit PMS they can sense it , even if I am no different outwardly to them and just growling inwardly, my eldest is nearly 3 and is normally a pretty good little boy, but as soon as I feel het up, he changes. If I convince myself that I am happy it changes his nature.

Copper my dd too young to give you personal experience but it sounds like you handled really well - firm not giving in to tantrum/reward for bad behaviour yet later on when things calmer promoting his meal to recognise his growing up, and that he has feelings. Just wondered if there was an element of jealousy maybe - brother's best friend with the family but not his? to consider for next time?

Well, can I just say that I am glad to have stirred up the debate. I also maintain that I am not criticising Gucci, but wanted to give my opinion. I feel that this is a safe forum to do so and everyone can defend themselves and make all the points they want without interruption or time constraints, what a luxury, and one I never get in everyday life.

I think the fact this is six months down the line makes my comments more valid than if I had reacted immediately.

No I don't think a hysterical reaction is the ideal reaction, but children (and adults sometimes) react like that if they are pushed. As adults we set up the conditions which children have to accept. If they are having tantrums or having to be bribed constantly, aren't they telling us that there is something wrong with the coinstraints and stresses they are being asked to accept? So I don't think the child should have been punished. I think it is lovely of her to apologise. Did you apologise to her, Gucci?

I have been guilty of rushing my children from pillar to post and have only recently realised that there is an alternative. I have realised that children react better if they have time to do things at their pace. For this to happen you have to have the right kind of space and our urban lives rarely afford that. A friend made me realise all this by her stately pace and her abhorrence of rushing. I've given up some of our regular activities (my children are four and two)
and stopped having so many visitors. I have found I'm calmer which makes home a better place for us all to be and I don't feel the need to rush off everywhere.

I feel really bad if there is anyone out there who thinks that they are doing everything wrong. We all agonise so much over what we are doing, and this is our way of caring. I know that I rarely give anyone my opinion face to face, even if it is asked for and my ideas only differ slightly from their's. Thats why this forum is so valuable, and why I forced myself to say what I thought about the posting by Gucci, even though I knew it would be controversial. I hope we can all use this site to the full.

Well, can I just say that I am glad to have stirred up the debate. I also maintain that I am not criticising Gucci, but wanted to give my opinion. I feel that this is a safe forum to do so and everyone can defend themselves and make all the points they want without interruption or time constraints, what a luxury, and one I never get in everyday life.

I think the fact this is six months down the line makes my comments more valid than if I had reacted immediately.

No I don't think a hysterical reaction is the ideal reaction, but children (and adults sometimes) react like that if they are pushed. As adults we set up the conditions which children have to accept. If they are having tantrums or having to be bribed constantly, aren't they telling us that there is something wrong with the coinstraints and stresses they are being asked to accept? So I don't think the child should have been punished. I think it is lovely of her to apologise. Did you apologise to her, Gucci?

I have been guilty of rushing my children from pillar to post and have only recently realised that there is an alternative. I have realised that children react better if they have time to do things at their pace. For this to happen you have to have the right kind of space and our urban lives rarely afford that. A friend made me realise all this by her stately pace and her abhorrence of rushing. I've given up some of our regular activities (my children are four and two)
and stopped having so many visitors. I have found I'm calmer which makes home a better place for us all to be and I don't feel the need to rush off everywhere.

I feel really bad if there is anyone out there who thinks that they are doing everything wrong. We all agonise so much over what we are doing, and this is our way of caring. I know that I rarely give anyone my opinion face to face, even if it is asked for and my ideas only differ slightly from their's. Thats why this forum is so valuable, and why I forced myself to say what I thought about the posting by Gucci. I hope we can all use this site to the full.

Louisa
I didn't read your opinion as being a critism at all and in fact I probably agree with you.

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Surely it's for Gucci to say if she felt offended?

Wow, for the first time in ages, I decided to check into Mumsnet and find that a message I posted months ago had provoked so much heat. Where to start ? Louisa's comments do feel like a criticism of the way I parent in some way, but I suppose the fact that I posted the message to start with, possibly opens myself up to criticism. So firstly thankyou to those who supported me about the way I dealt with the situation. As far as I remember, one of the problems was I had developed a migraine in Ikea from the bright lighting, which very possibly aggravated my reasoning that day. However, I truly believe that at the age of 7 years old, a child is well on the way to learning acceptable sociable behaviour. And yes, sometimes of course that is maybe expecting a lot from a not yet fully emotionally developed human being, but the difference between a pre-school and a primary school child is immense.I feel that children do have to know from a certain age that life does not wholly revolve around themselves, when they start going to school they have to accept this because they have to share attention with 30 or so others, and I think this is a good time for them to learn this at home too. They have to know that sharing and being aware of others around you is an acceptable way of behaving. Ofcourse behaviour is subjective to each of us as parents, but you can only go by your own judgment. I am an experienced adult but not an experienced parent and I fully admit I probably do make mistakes, but I do know that I want a child around me that knows how to behave when we are out and about. And if that makes me scared of strong feelings then that is fine with me. I do not expect to bring up the perfect Stepford robot, but as a 7 year old, you can show your needs without resorting to nasty, vicious words and screaming temper tantrums. With all due respect Louisa, dealing with 2 and 4 year old tantrums are completely different to 7 year old tantrums. It isn't just shouting and screaming and kicking the floor with frustration, it is rude, personal and ungrateful stuff that can come out. Believe me you will know what I mean in 3-4 years. Saying that though I actually have a fantastically relaxed, close and loving relationship with my daughter, and the reason for posting this message in the first place was that this was such an unusual thing to happen and really surprised me. I wanted to find out if other parents have experienced this with 7 year olds.
Louisa, I respect your highly optimistic ideals of parenthood, that we should stop rushing our children around, that we should give up our own activities/friend so we can spend more time on our kids, and that we all have the luxury of uninterrupted time to chat on Mumsnet. That may be your reality, but mine is completely different, I work full time at an extremely demanding job, I am a single mother of an only child, I have a house to run, bills to pay, making sure homework gets done, cooking meals, cleaning, laundry etc etc - surviving in fact. I do my best, but I am human and to be perfectly honest I do not always get time to listen to and cherish every word my daughter says although we always talk over any arguments we have. We get by as best we can because we have no other choice.
I agree that as adults we set up conditions in which children have to accept, but in the adult world we are subjected to huge constraints on a daily basis. At what age do we expect our children to learn this, again it is a parenting decision. I would love to have been able to allow my child to have as elongated a childhood as possible, however our lives do not allow this. As an only child of a single parent she is expected to do far more chores to help me in the house for instance than those of my friends with partners. Is that fair, probably not when compared to some of her friends, but again what choice do we have ?
Your parenting decisions are yours to make, but all I can say is that I have a child that is beautiful, caring, sensitive, kind, thoughtful ,hard working, in all the top groups at school, and of whom I am totally and utterly proud. I am definitely not the best mum in the world, but I try my best, we muddle through and it seems to work.

Gucci, thanks for your response, you were very reasonable. Just a couple of points - I don't suggest we give up our own activities and friends, the places and friends I was talking about were are child-oriented anyway, but I discovered the children are happier at home more. And no, I don't know what it will be like if they tantrum at seven.

I hope I can say this without sounding hollow but I admire your achievement in bringing up your daughter, and I think her being involved in household tasks sounds great. I am too impatient to let my children help often, and don't know how to leave things undone, depriving them of my attention.

I'd like to leave this thread as it is, now we've had this dialogue. Thanks.