Girls v Boys

[Kmg]

My son is 3.5 and many of his first friends, (and mine), were girls (and mums of girls), but now I find us diverging more and more. I can understand that at this age boys and girls may have different interests, and different play needs, but it's the parent's attitude that annoys me. I have two boys, (and they certainly are an exhuberant handful at times), several of my friends have two girls (with a wider age gap too). I find that mums of girls seem to get less tolerant of boys' behaviour as the months go on.

message withdrawn

Robinw, I thought that Tigermoth's last posting was quite reasonable and well thought out. It strikes me as a little bit glib to suggest that all our children could be well behaved if only we gently pointed out to them when they behave badly and take sanctions against them.

It does depend partly on how willing the child is to please his/her parents, and little girls do seem to score in this department. I don't put up with bad behaviour when we go out - but my children constantly test this out, and are capable of running amok while turning a deaf ear to parental reasoning or being told to sit down. Anybody who has waited for more than an hour in a surgery waiting room with more small children than hands to control them will know what I mean.
I don't give up on bad behaviour or make excuses for it but I must admit that my children have been quite badly behaved on several occasions recently. And it really gets up my nose when I feel that a parent with one well behaved child sitting next to him or her is smugly comparing their own child with my unruly offspring!

I think we'll have to agree to differ, RobinW.
I'm happy to admit that my parenting decisions and my children's behaviour are not always 100% right. As I see it, my relationship with my children is a learning process - I'm sure I could still be writing on this website asking for moral support or practical tips on how to cope with my 25 year old son bringing his girlfriend home to visit. You appear to be more confident and single-minded in your attitudes to parenting. Fair enough, but it means that you and I have probably reached a stalemate.

Sml, Yes why is is that waiting rooms, despite our very best intentions, can bring out the worst in our children? Been exactly in your position - only you have even more children to cope with than I have. And agree - exactly how do you 'make' an unwilling child sit still by imposing sanctions, unfailingly, like clockwork? At my son's nursery, even the professionals sometimes had to resort to physical contact (firm sitting down on adult lap) to keep a wandering child still.

I'm sorry if I sounded critical of my friends. That really wasn't my intention and the friend who replied here knows that - we have since spoken. (Gucci, if you're reading this, husband has agreed to release me for a while this evening!! so definitely on for a bottle of wine at yours tonight, round about 9 - 9.30-ish!).

Tigermoth, glad you have sorted things out with your friend.
As regards children's behaviour, I am generally classed as the 'strictest' of the parents I know, I insist in specific levels of behaviour, particularly when at the table or eating out. I don't like the children to 'run amok' in shops, picking up all the toys & discarding them etc and, on the whole I hve very well-behaved children BUT my eldest finds it almost impossible to sit still. She will remain in the vicinity of the chair, but to actually sit on it for any length of time seems very difficult for her. Consequently, she gets praised for sitting quietly when to some other people it seems like she has spent 1/2 hour fidgetting around & generally being pesky. Its difficult to make rules for other peoples kids unless you know in full all the circumstances.
Oh, the little boy who is great friends with my daughter will also run amok given the oppurtunity, but if I look at him & frown he turns into a little angel - sometimes it's a lot easier for other people to get your kids to behave!

I'm new to mumsnet but read the discussion of behaviour with great interest. The problem I've had has been encountering an older child who hits babies, and has done for years (he's nearly four) I've been in situations where I've had to avoid going to groups I really enjoy and need because he will be there and I don't want my little girl hit. I've simply found it too difficult to discuss it with the parents and have witnessed I think, their concern lessening over the years. The strategy Tigermoth used, speaking calmly but firmly to the child, was used but without really being very firm. My feelings of distress and protective anxiety over the issue focussed on this: they obviously felt their child shouldn't be told off in any way that might make him feel bad, so no anger was shown him, nor even emphatic language. By sticking to this belief, they allowed him, I think, to infringe other children's rights, especially the most important one, to be safe, not to be hit.

I feel grateful at getting this chance to talk about this as few people I know feel the way I do, and those who agree tend to be the parents of children who have suffered. I felt guilty at not having the guts to say these things to the parents involved.

Finally, I know people say that aggressive behaviour is normal for small children, but it is also normal to have children who don't behave like this and their rights have to be protected.

The fear is that by saying the approach tigermoth used isn't enough, I feel i risk being labelled some kind of disciplinarian.

The trouble is beata, You and Robinw are on one side and Tigermoth is on the other and from what I've read it is truly distressing for both sides, but the onus is always on the parents of the disruptive child to 'sort them out'. To make an assumption that any parent of such children aren't doing enough is presumptuous.

I don't have any experience of this (yet) but I am a little worried about my 4 year old starting school as she is quite shy and may be an easy target. But I've always thought that adults talking together about how they are feeling about it is a good idea so that everyone understands how they are upset by the situation and let the parents of the bullied child to talk to the other child and vice versa, all calmy of course with everyone present including a mediator such as a teacher.

As I said I have no experience in this but if it did happen I would want to do the above.

message withdrawn

Yes I realise there are people out there that don't see a problem with their child, which is very sad and means it's very difficult to sort the problem out.

Funnily enough, or not, my 4 year old said to me yesterday that a boy at playgroup hit her. It seems it only happened once, when no one was looking. She volunteered this information and didn't seem upset just sort of 'I didn't know why he did it'.

Hi!

I have a 3 year old boy-- he has a lot of energy, but isn't aggressive or mean spirited. He has hit kids before in nursery and once at an indoor playground. Here's what we've done.. I think it's the right thing...

at nursery: the first time he scratched someone, then a few minutes later hit someone! They took his aside both times and told him that he was not to do that and if he wanted a toy (which is why he acted out) he should "use his words". After he hit the other child, he got a mini time out with one of teachers. It wasn't a punishment, just a chance to sit and calm down for a minute or two (they read a book together). I got an incident report and talked with his teacher about how to deal with it. We decided to try and make him understand what he needed to do in a situation like that (eg "use his words" and if he got frustrated to go talk to the teacher). At home we role played someone having a toy he wanted and not giving it to him. Also, for the scratching, she suggested cutting his fingernails constantly so it would be ineffective. He got two more incident reports over a week and a half (both for biting), but we kept up and he hasn't done it since. After the first report I came home and burst into tears it's very hard hearing your child has done something like that! But, I was so glad they told me right away and we coordinated our efforts. The teacher assured me that this was normal not acceptable, of course-- but it didn't mean he was the worst child ever. I don't really know how they dealt with the kids that got hit/bitten/scratched, but I think the policy is to give them heaps more attention than the aggressor.

at the indoor playground: two sisters were egging him on and teasing him and he hit the younger one. I saw it and made him apologize to both, then we went and apologized to the mother (who was very kind and said that her kids probably started it.. she hadn't seen it) and then we went home. Our policy is that, no matter what, it's not ok to hit or bite other kids and if he does it, he doesn't get to play anymore.

At home, he has a little girl friend who has as much energy as he does. Since I know her mom, I give him a little more leeway.. he's still not allowed to hit her or anything like that, but they do a lot of running around and falling down. There's another little girl friend of his that isn't into really physical play and he's not allowed to be as rambunctious with her. He does pretty well with that, I think.

Anyway, that's what we do. Hopefully by the time he gets to primary school he'll know what's right and wrong in that respect and how to deal with a mess of kids on the playground. I do have to admit, hearing your child is hurting another child is very difficult. I was a mess for a few weeks thinking that he'd do something really horrible at nursery. It really helped to have his teacher talk to me about it and keep me up to date (especially hearing the good stuff.. he did learn to use his words and go to her if he was frustrated!).

message withdrawn

In response to JAC, I think the circumstances do vary,but I think the onus should be on the parents of the child causing the problem to sort it out. I can't imagine many people being willing to do any sorting out for them, and the only solution I found was to withdraw from quite a number of activities, which I did and do badly need.

Also, here's a suggestion relevant to the assumption that the parents aren't doing enough. It was difficult for me to talk about it to the parents as I've said, and all I could go on was what I saw: the manner of the mother not changing in any way, whatever the child had done. If they were doing more, they should have been telling the parents of the babies being targeted what they were doing. It might make everyone feel better, and if they were to be open to suggestions about how to deal with the problem, they might benefit.

So if your child is causing a problem do make sure others know what steps you are taking to deal with it.

The other day out shopping I saw a lady with a boy who was on the pavement crying and kicking/screaming, the mother was looking very calm trying to stop him. For all I knew she could have been dying inside as obviously people were staring. I felt really bad for her not knowing whether she needed help or not, but from where I was it definately looked as though she was coping. All I'm saying is that what you see isn't always what it is.

As I've said before I've no experience of my child being bullied, and I may well feel completely different if I came across a parent that didn't seem bothered. It's just me, I always put myself in other peoples shoes to see how they are feeling and tend to forget about oneself.

Thanks for your thoughts JAC. No doubt the debate will continue

Thanks for your thoughts JAC. No doubt the debate will continue

message withdrawn

It's been good to catch up with this discussion. I think some very interesting points have been raised.

Jj, I found your message really constructive. I will remember your experience when my youngest son starts nursery. I especially liked the 'use your words' suggestion, when behaviour threatens to get aggressive and out-of-control. Having a 'do' rather than just a list of 'don'ts' and 'no's' when telling off my son is by far the most effective way to get him to change his behaviour. It gives him something exact to aim for, as I found out through trial and error.

To add to the general diacussion on why some parents appear to not tell off their child enough about some anti-social act, can I just add one thought? When I control/tell off my son there are two sorts of telling off. Firstly immediate words and action. eg saying 'stop it now'/ holding him/ removing him from the situation etc. This is done in public and hopefully goes far enough to calm the wronged child and/or parent. But it may not have much long term effect on my son, by itself.

Secondly, more considered words and action. This is done in private because it takes much longer, and I want my son to really open up. It also has to be done when he's calm and when I've had time to gather my thoughts. I'll want to hear my son's side of the story, ask him why he did what he did. I'll explain why I'm punishing him eg removing a favourite toy for a while, and agree with him a realistic and 'good' way of him behaving in a similar situation it it happens again. Or remind him of a previous discussion on this if it's happened before. I suppose I started to do this when he was three or so, obviously in a simplified way.

What I'm saying is that for me at least, lots of behavour control goes on in private. And some of it is a private matter. I'm trying to build my son's trust in me. I don't want to force him into a theoretical corner and so encourage him to lie his way out.

So if I sometimes appear stangely calm and detached when dealing with a naughty child in public, it may well be becasue I am already thinking how best to tackle the situation with them in private.

While this discussion has higlighted to me how important it is to tell the other parents what measures you are taking to encourage good behaviour in your child, the real nitty gritty of behaviour control is sometimes a private matter.

Got to go now, may add more soon.......

Tigermoth
I really like what you're saying. If my child's
behaviour ever in any way affects someone else in public adversely I have always immediately (and instinctively) apologised, just like I would if it was my behaviour that affected someone. I have always found that I am then free to explain, if necessary, to my child what they have done "wrong" as the other person is totally satisfied by my immediate response.

I had a recent experience of this sort recently. A friend, her 7 year old daughter and my 7 year old daughter spent a long hideous day in Ikea over an extremely busy Easter holiday. The girls ran around desperate for space and daylight. When we finally escaped we took them to a park for air and exercise. My daughter immediately plunged her foot and trainer into dog poo in the park. She refused to go barefoot so we ended up having to go back to the car and home.
My daughter went into the most awful, raging screaming tantrum because she did not want to go home. She was screaming at me, accusing me of all sorts of ridiculous stuff. I had not seen this sort of behaviour from her for years and was absolutely speechless. I just could not pacify or stop her in any way and was loathe to embarrass her in front of our friends. I had to just charge back to the car and make very clear to her that this was not the end of it.
When we got home she was not allowed to go to the fair or watch her favourite TV programe, and in all fairness she did apologise and has not done anything like it since.
The problem I found was that I was actually quite scared of the incredible rage that I could not control. I like to think I am normally strong and in control. It was embarassing and I found myself apologising like crazy to our friends. For a normally quite quiet girl this was way out of the ordinary.
I felt afterwards that I had handled it the only way I could without exacerbating the situation, but I was astonished it had happened to my 'grown up ' 7 year old. It was a lesson to me about the difficulty in being very hard on your child in public, and made me realise that whilst it may look like you have very little control over your child to others, sometimes discipline at a later time is better when they are fully compus mentus.

What an absolutely fascinating thread! Polarised views, good writing, the mini-drama of Gucci entering the fray from clear blue sky... Seriously though, there's some really thought provoking stuff here. I especially liked your posts, Tigermoth- it sounds like you handled a difficult situation really well to mes.

Hi Scummymummy,

blame/discipline/girls/boys/parents/teachers - definitely a very difficult subject to tackle.

The reason for my orginial posting is now 7 years old. Currently I find he plays better with groups of girls than with groups of boys. Plus ca change! One of his three best friends is Gucci's daughter.

However, my youngest son is fast approaching the nursery stage. I wonder how many grey hairs he's going to give me?

Gucci, I first read your posting several months ago, telling of your visit to Ikea and its aftermath. The memory of it has stayed with me, and I feel I need to say what I think about it.

I once felt like that after a day in Ikea. Why is it that we expect children to show self-control when they have been put through a bad experience? You yourself say that she was "desperate for light and space".

I can understand that you felt you had to react strongly to her outburst. You are obviously a person who feels strong feelings are dangerous, as you state you usually feel you are strong and in control. But surely she had a right to have her feelings accepted instead of being punished for them?

Just saying "I am sorry you feel bad" has a worthwhile effect on most people. This makes them see that the bad thing is not them, it is outside them.

I know this is a difficult area, and challenge feels like criticism, I am not criticising you, but I feel I have to say this for my own peace of mind.

Louisa- you ARE criticising, I think. Six months down the line as well.
I agree with some of what you say but I think the way you've said it comes across as a bit precious. You are not Gucci or her daughter and so don't know about their feelings and relationship. They are the experts on their own lives. We all have different parenting styles and we all make mistakes.

Hey this topic's just got hot again!!

I have just read all the previous postings having not been around when they were going on first time, and I just have to say I love the idea of 'Use your words' as a positive sort of disipline for a toddler. I finfd I am always saying no, don't etc and watching my 2.5 yr old go off on one, but to say use your words, ask for what you want is a much more positive tone. I'm gonna try that one.

Thanks