Girls v Boys

[Kmg]

My son is 3.5 and many of his first friends, (and mine), were girls (and mums of girls), but now I find us diverging more and more. I can understand that at this age boys and girls may have different interests, and different play needs, but it's the parent's attitude that annoys me. I have two boys, (and they certainly are an exhuberant handful at times), several of my friends have two girls (with a wider age gap too). I find that mums of girls seem to get less tolerant of boys' behaviour as the months go on.

I am the mother of a (nearly) 22 month old boy. He was very early to start just about everything related to motor skills (both gross and fine) but a bit later to start talking than girls I know of the same age. He is definitely a "Mr Paddypants" and began the "terrible twos" early at about 14 months!! Developmentally (according to a speech pathologist friend) girls usually develop language skill earlier, but are slower on the motor skills whereas boys develop the motor skills faster and are slower on the language. As far as tantrums go, though, I personally think it has more to do with the personality of the individual child rather than the sex of the child. But we do love them anyway!

Yorkie,
I've posted my theory on this one before. I think some of this could be down to the position in the family rather than just the sex of the child. On the whole I've found that first children (my eldest included) are much more laid back than the second when the age gap is quite close. I have two boys, 15 months apart and they couldn't be more different. Tomas is now 2.5 and has always been the sweetest, easiest going of children. His brother, Jonah, is the most angelic looking child but has been having tantrums virtually since day one. We always say that he inherited Tomas' terrible twos as Tomas seems to have missed them (so far...touch wood and all that!). I'm sure it's because Jonah has to fight for the attention that Tomas got naturally. I'm a second child and apparently I was the same.....No, I don't believe it either! Having said that Jonah's behaviour has improved dramatically since he started talking so a lot of it was obviously caused by frustration.

Kmg that's an interesting comment which I will bear in mind as my son and his little postnatal group pals get older. But at the moment it is a young lady who is the scourge of the others, all boys. She has a nice line in eyelid pinching, and I don't mean her own. Her mum is brilliant with her and very upset by the whole thing, but at the moment finds her a handful and envies us our affectionate, if noisy, little guys.

KMG, I experienced exactly the same thing when my son was 3.5. Marina, be warned! He, too started off with more girls than boys as baby friends. I 'm too busy at the moment to got into more detail -but it did settle down, around the age of five. By that age even he began to realise we were losing friends because of his exhuberent boyish behaviour and some mother-of-girls worries about it.

I didn't want to apportion blame on either side 100%. You're so torn by having to make a big scene and tell off you son to please another mother for some naughtyness you would have let go. I couldn't win. But it did pass.

message withdrawn

Hmonty - I also agree that 'second child syndrome' explains a great deal that goes on in our house. However, a word of warning, my eldest was also the little angel, certainly until 2.5, but gradually got more difficult, as his little brother led him in antics hitherto unimagined! A friend (mother of 3) recently told me her theory that children who miss the terrible twos are little horrors when they are 3. It certainly rings true here. I just hope the opposite applies, and they will both be sweet little darlings in a year's time ...?

RobinW, as you say, things can get inflamed when parents, teachers and children have different ideas of what constitutes violent behaviour, especially taking boys play/girls play differences into account. I found play fighting in my son's nursery school a major bone of contention too.

When does role play and physical exhuberence cross the line into malcious aggression in a nursery-school child?

And when some kicking, hitting and biting occurs, how much tale-telling, winding up, stealing, name-calling, lying and other manipulative behaviour was its precurser?

And if the whole gloroius event, from start to finish, was not witnessed by an adult, can you trust a group of excited pre-schoolers to give an accurate and unbiased blow-by-blow account of what took place?

It seems to me that only when things are beginning to get a little out of hand will a busy play ground assistant swoop in, thereby seeing the end result, not the build-up.

In his nursery school days, my son was a very affectionate, generous, loud, lairy figet-bottom. He was not malicous and was very open with his feelings. No subtle maniputaltion with him. He entered the mostly boys play-fighting arena with gusto. His teachers did not stop this behavour, but tried to control it. With the emphasis on play, not fighting.

But there were incidents, both in and out of school and my son's name cropped up. I know a few parents were worried, friends of mine who had daughters at his school. So I went to see his teacher to discuss this at length. She said his behavour was pretty normal if lively. Her was certainly not hyperacative. He was mostly great friends with these girls 90% of the time, and that I was coping with his behaviour in a reasonable way. Asking around, his baby sitters, and other teachers agreed with this. That still didn't stop a request by one parent, as I came to find out, that he be put in another class away from the friends he had made, and limited to a half-day at nursery, not a full day.(Which would have had serious financial repercussions: this state nursery had low fees)

All I could do in the end was tell the parents of these girls that I would not be letting my son play with them outside school. It involved cutting off all friendly social contact with them, which was sad. They didn't want to see me if I was going to ban my son from seeing their daughters. I explained I couldn't cope with being piggy in the middle and I didn't want to pile stress on my relationship with my son. I knew that all the children concerned were upset about this, but it seemed the only way of of the situation.

Ironically, it was the children who brought all the adults back together again, as their friendship developed in very considerate, calm and non-violent ways at primary school.

message withdrawn

I agree that ages 3 to 5 seem to be the time when girls and boys are most different, with boys in general being a lot more outwardly aggressive (pushing, shoving etc). In my situation, one of our friends eldest was like that, but would calm down if told (& luckily my friend had no objection to me asking him to be more careful). One of my daughters other friends, however, was not allowed to play with him as he was too rough. This same child was the one I overheard (at 3.5) telling my daughter 'and don't tell anyone beause if you do I shall just do it again harder' after some squabble over toys - I know which one I prefer!

It must have been very hard on you as well as your daughter when she told you how upset she was about being bullied. You want to think that your children's first experience of school is a good one. I suppose from the teachers point of view, it takes a while to determine if a child needs referring to an educational psychologist like the little boy in question. Not that it is much comfort to you in the meantime.

Did you talk to his parents? Were they aware of your daughter's feelings? It must have been hard on them too. Who wants to think their child is causing problems?

The situation I found myself in was different to yours but in answer to your question about controlling my son's behaviour here goes:

When I became aware that some of my friends were worried about my son's behaviour to their daughters in and out of nursery I made an appointment with his teacher(unasked)to get advice. I asked her a number of questions: Was my son hyperactive? (despite the fact he sleeps like log), Was he turning into a bully? Was there a problem between him and these girls because parents were expressing concern? did he need any extra help? Was I controlling him properly?
I asked the teacher not to spare my feelings. I also went through these questions with my son's baby sitters who knew all the children concerned and other outsiders whose opinion I respected.

The verdict form them all was: He is lively, not hyperactive. He is usually very kind and caring and plays well at nursery with girls and boys, including the girls in question. These girls are excitable and so is your son. Sometimes he gets carried away and if they are argueing, he will hit out at whoever is there, boy or girl. There is no need for any therapy, this is normal development in a 3 5 year old. He's a very boyish boy and has strong emotions. Gradually he will control them better. He is not the worst behaved in class. He is not a bully and does not egg others on to be bullies.

I told the teacher how I controlled him when we were with other children and she said there was little more I could do apart from keep on doing them - I was doing all the obvious things eg:

Calmly but firmly telling him to stop and meaning it. Telling him to say 'sorry'. Taking away or threatening to take away a treat, or promising a treat for good behaviour. If all this failed, cutting short his playtime by taking him home.
In retrospect I don't think I was always good at the above, but he was my first child I was having to learn about behaviour control as I went along.

Trying to be tactful as I could, I spoke to the daughters' parents, my friends, about the teachers comments. They were not convinced. And of course it was easier for me to say, 'no action needed' My child was not being hit. They did not feel the teacher's promise of monitoring the situation went far enough, hence their requests for my son to be moved or his nursey time limited to a half day. Neither of which took place. To be honest I began to feet as if I was being bullied too - by these daughers, parents.

I began to think about how my son behaved with some of my other friends daughters away from nursery. No hitting, they got on fine.

I came to the conclusion that my son, and probably the daughters, too, were picking up on the tension between the nursery parents and myself.They knew we were getting wound up about the whole thing and were not presenting a united front when doling out discipline. To these parents, my son was almost always going to be in the wrong and I felt torn between my loyalty to him and my friendship with these parents. Just ignoring my son or telling him off was not going to change his behaviour. He needed some positive attention too. That's why I told the parents that I thought it was best if our children did not meet for a while so things could cool down, and my son could grow up a little, but I would hope our friendship could continue with adults only meetings, as it always had been.

I felt I was backing down and being considerate. (What else could I have done? moved my son to a different school?) But the parents saw things from their daughter's point of view only, and cut off social contact with me.

It all worked out in the end. School saw to that, as I said previously, and now we are all, adults and children, very good and well-behaved friends again

Tigermoth, don't you think the other parents were being a bit 'childish' in cutting off social contact with you. Lets be honest we've probably all been bullied at some point in life (and as adults) it is a fact of life and I can't stand this cotton wool attitude that is becoming prevailant. Kids can't play certain games in the playground, skipping ropes are banned etc. I know I'd feel upset if my child was bullied, but it would be more constructive to teach him to stand up for himself and be confident enough to put off the bullies. Surely shielding them doesn't help in the long run.

BTW I am a BIG fan of Furedi!!!!

Tigermoth
Thanks for writing down your experiences with your son. As a mother of another very 'boyish boy' who is essentially lovely but tends to get carried away I found it really useful to read.
Thankyou.

Tigermoth
Thanks for writing down your experiences with your son. As a mother of another very 'boyish boy' who is essentially lovely but tends to get carried away I found it really useful to read.
Thankyou.

Yes I think there was an element of childishness in the parent's behaviour, but with hindsight, I think I could have managed the situation better and suggested some damage limitation: We adults should have agreed to let the children part company for a couple of months long before we all got so tense about it, while maintaining our separate and very civilised friendship. Then gradualy reintroduced the children back into the mix, helping them stand up for themselves/not lose control and hit out etc. as appropriate.

Easier said than done!

Thanks for your comments, Twinsmum and lil.

message withdrawn

RobinW, sad for all concerned that your daughter's school did not pick up on this little boy's problems earlier. If my child had come home with very major bruises from another child, as opposed to the odd rough-and-tumble scratch, I too would seek a very full explanation from the school, and assurance that my child would be protected from such future incidents.

Not sure I agree with your point that we encourage violence in society by excusing it in our children. At least at nursery level I don't think the word 'violence' usually applies, except in cases like yours. But as you say, being taught to manage aggression is a very valuable lesson for both boys and girls - a lesson that can't start too young.

message withdrawn

RobinW, I agree that learning to control aggression is something to teach all children from an early age. The nurseries and schools that my son attends have done this, to the best of my knowledge. I'm surprised that any nursery would excuse or ignore aggression or bullying regularly in a class of young children - it's a health and safety issue as much as anything else. You have my sympathy for having to put up with a badly organised one.

If my son or any of his class-mates do anything from hitting to telling tales that is deemed anti-social behaviour they are swiftly dealt with: eg told off by the teacher/ taken somewhere quiet for a few minutes/made to say sorry to the other party /parents informed of incident etc. Or
longer term, having good behaviour targets set for the whole class, with praise or stickers for good behaviour etc etc. This was the case at nursery and at the primary schools he has attended. All promoted a no bullying policy too.

In answer to your last point, the parents who expressed concern about my son where people I had known for a while and saw regularly out of nursery. We were all first-time parents so we had not much experience to draw from, unlike the professionals who were looking after our children. The parents and children that my son and I saw purely at nursery did not express concern about him - and he was a popular boy. I think the problem with my son was rooted in the fact that he was seeing too much of my friend's children out of nursery. And yes, we should have recognised this earlier.

Lastly, I think discourging aggression is one thing - repressing it altogether is another. Like you(I assume)I don't have any hard facts about the proportion of childhood bullies who have become criminals etc. I, too, suspect that there is a link. But if aggression is seen only in a negative light, (ie isn' t aggression present in 'competition' 'survival' 'determination' etc? )isn't there a danger, especially to boys, of emotinal repression and low self esteem? and that can lead to serious problems in adult-hood too.

Any nursery-school/primary school teachers out there who can add to this in any way?

message withdrawn

I have followed this discussion with some interest - my eldest son is just about to start nursery school. We have 2 rules for our children: 1. don't start any problems yourself. and 2. if someone else starts to bully you, stand up for yourself.
The implementation of (2) is likely to lead to fisticuffs at some point, but this doesn't bother me as long as I am satisfied that my children are not the originators of any problem. (my brother was very popular when he beat up the school bully, older than him, aged about 14!)
I think that children under the age of about 6 do things for no apparent reason, and don't know why they've done it themselves, so this factor also has to be taken into account.

I really agree with your last point Sml. I was at a playgroup recently when a 4 year old walked up to my toddler and punched him in the tummy! My son was so shocked he just stood there. I had to stop myself walloping the child to be honest! but I told him off firmly without touching him, and I had to tell myself that my son might very well do the same thing when he's older, they don't know cause and effect at that age do they?

RobinW, yes, children need to be taught what is acceptable and what isn't. But you're lucky if your child learns that lesson quickly, with no lapses along the way.

Agree with Sml and Lil that it can take a while to learn cause and effect. Young children do things without thinking through the consequences.

And they are just all born different. My older son, from the moment he took his first steps would never hold my hand and walk beside me. He would either run, walk behind me or want to be carried. It took years to get him to 'walk properly'. So I thought that most young children needed training in this. But my second son, aged 20 months, will obediently stand there, holding out his hand till mummy takes it and then walk sedately along with me. Only it's not really obedience, because he's never been trained to do it.

Wouldn't you agree that some children, more than others, are naturally more docile and eager to please other children and adults? Aren't these children going to learn the rules of good behaviour more quickly? All children learn to read at different rates and we dont heap blame on them or their parents for being a bit behind in this. In this discussion on agressive behaviour control etc, I'm talking about children a year or two out of nappies (we hope!) not teenagers.

It sounds like your daughter knew the rules of good behaviour from an early age. It's just a sad fact of life that others she encounters at her age may not be as mature in that department.

As you say, praise is everything and I've learned that it's far better to be positive about my son's behaviour etc than to be negative about it. Which doesn't mean I tolerate aggression, but I'm not going to teach him to totally repress it either. It can be used in positive ways, so if he wants to kick something, he's got a football.

Dear Tigermoth,

I have not joined in any discussions so far but have followed/read with interest when I have the time.
As a good friend of mine you introduced me to this net sight and even told me your nickname. Well you could have knocked me down with a feather on Friday when I came accross a large discussion about a problem you had had with your son when he was at nursery school. The problem had obviously involved my daughter (all the issues,schools and timings etc tie in). I was shocked to say the least and spent the weekend mulling over how best to deal with this. I decided the best way is to open the problem up for discussion.
Tigermoth, please read over your letters and see how hurtful they are, about myself and my daughter. They are also inaccurate which is unfair for other contributors. It just goes to show how you can be anybody you want on the Internet.
I feel this is a case of being hoisted by your own petard. As 'good friends', surely we can discuss this outside of the Internet ? Especially as I am finding it difficult to offer my support with your current problems under these circumstances.
You know who I am, and we are seeing each other this evening, please talk to me about it.
Gucci

Gucci, obviously I don't know what's going on here but I have to say that having re-read Tigermoth's messages, I didn't get the impression she was "blaming" the parents of the other child. She has demonstrated her concern to find out the truth about her son by independently approaching the nursery staff and on a number of occassions has accepted blame for not dealing with the situation as well as she might have done. From my readings of it, I didn't think either side had done anything wrong.

Don't be too sensitive about her revealations. Remember, this is all anonymous and the whole point is for us to pool our experiences so that others can learn / add to it when we have similar problems ourselves. Isn't it inevitable that where our offspring are concerned there are going to be a lot of raw emotions involved?

Gucci, I wrote these things being very aware that you might read them, since , as you say, I had told you what my nickname was. I was trying to honestly put across my point of view, a point of view that you were very aware of at the time. I am sorry if this has hurt you.