How angry would you be with your child if they did this and how would you discipline them, if at all?

[MissScarlett]

I've just had to get the bus home and leave my car behind, because my nearly 4 year old switched on the back seat interior light in my car without me noticing and now the battery is dead. She had been touching it a few days ago, and I'd told her not to because it could break the car.

Yesterday, she ran my empty dishwasher and I found the oven switched on. She regularly pulls all her clothes (and occasionally mine) out of the wardrobe all over the floor, draws on walls, pokes things where they shouldn't go etc etc. I realise I'm describing something which most kids do at some point, but I suppose the problem is the frequency with which these things tend to happen. The stuff she does is, I would say, mildly naughty, it's more the fact that she's never off duty when it comes to getting up to mischief and I'm constantly dealing with the consquences.

She is generally a lovely kid, she's very sweet and seems sorry when I tell her off but will be off looking for the next thing as soon as I'm not actually standing over her.

The question is...I'm wondering if I should step it up a gear in terms of discipline, maybe shout a bit and get more cross? At the moment, I think I might be explaining things a bit too much, 'you shouldn't do this because....' and being a bit too nice about it, and it's not really deterring her. But at the same time, I don't want to be massively telling her off and getting really angry if it's just a phase that she's going to eventually grow out of.

I was actually really angry about the car thing, but I kind of thought, well, she only pressed an interesting-looking button with no real idea about what would happen - but her actions have consequences for me and the rest of the family - all having to troop home on the bus in the rain, having to go back and try to jumpstart the car later on tonight...and this kind of stuff happens all the time - she will often do the same naughty thing over and over again, even though she does know (at nearly four) that it's wrong.

My partner is old-school and thinks that if she got a smack every time she did something like this, she would think twice about it. Both myself and my partner would both have been given a smack by our respective mums as children in this kind of situation. I don't want to smack her though. What do you think?

Don't smack her. And try not to shout at her (I don't practice what I preach, btw). But yes, I would step up the discipline - time out in her room/place of your choosing, foregoing treats etc. And explain very clearly why, so she gets the actions = consequences thing.

At nearly 4 I would say she is more than old enough to understand that writing on walls, turning the oven on etc is not good. It sounds like she's pushing her luck, and she might actually be happier for some very clear boundaries. Re the car light - the point isn't that it was an interesting button, the point is that you had told her to leave it alone.

My 3.5 year old is a complete monkey and tris on this type of behaviour (she has 3 older sisters they were NEVER as naughty as her!)

I think all you can do is watch her carefully and be consistent in your discipline. I use time out with my dd and it does work but I would use it for behaviour that she has already been told not to do.

I think I would be letting her know that the things shes doing are not acceptable and that you are cross about them.

You don't need to explain why some of these things are bad e.g. writing on walls, pulling clothes out just that you are not happy with her behaviour.I would also expect her to help me clear or clean up any mess.

On the other hand, I think the car light thing isn't so bad - she couldn't be expected to realise the consequences.

I actually believe (as does Carolyn Webster-Stratton) that Time Out (or the naughty step) should only be used to change behaviour after other methods of behaviour influence have failed.

There is a difference between punishing a child for non compliance of requests and punishing for behaviour.

If you want to change a child's behaviour in a positive loving way (rather than punitive) the best way is to tell the child what behaviour you wish to see and reward the child for this behaviour.

I would get a copy of The Incredible Years (or try to find a course near you) as this is a great way of getting good behaviour without punishments.

Thanks - don't worry, smacking's not on the agenda. I just want an effective way to get her to stop doing naughty stuff. I generally am fairly consistent with her, but lately I'm getting so fed up that it's like I've given up. Can anyone explain what time out means to them? Is it the same as the naughty step? It doesn't really seem to worry her much, she just sits down, and does her time , then gets up and starts prowling about for the next thing she wants to get up to!

I'm not sure how to reward not fiddling with the dishwasher though? Maybe if she gets to the end of the day without getting up to no good?

Some of the rules we have are:

pens/pencils etc etc are only kept downstairs and must be used at the table and "paper is for drawing on"

If she doing naughty things to her bedroom I wouldn't let her play up their anymore.

Our house has been pretty much childproofed - 3 girls in 3 years it's less stressful that way.

I tend to use time out when she has been purposefully defiant or nasty to her siblings.

Is it possible you've accidentally got into a vicious cycle of her doing these things because they get her lots of attention?

I'm really liking the sound of changing her behaviour in a loving way - but does it really work? I'm more used to the idea of bad behaviour = bad consequence, iyswim.

I don't think time out is as effective as saying "I'm cross that you've done this - you've made a big mess that Mummy has to clean up. We can't do (X,Y or Z) until you help me sort it out. I do NOT want you to do it again" all with your best stern face.

It could be, but I think it's more that she's a 'fiddler' - she's very hands on, she likes pressing buttons, pulling things out etc

If the timeout thing hasn't been a success, then think about the going-without-treats thing. Or the pasta jar approach (I think the jist is that she gets a bit of pasta for every Good Thing, loses one for every Bad Thing, and at the end of the week the amount of pasta is converted into Something Nice - a sort of "Pasta = Prizes" thing).

sorry , I'm replying to previous post there!

I do the 'stern face, Mummy's cross' thing and it does work, she will immediately say sorry and help me tidy up. It's just that she'll be doing something else similar in a few hours. It's like she just can't retain the fact that I'm going to get cross (or she doesn't care!)

Find her some things that fulfill her fiddling needs. My dd loves our gameboy advance thingy - I have no clue what to do but she seems to know enough and it's lots of button fiddling.

When she does something like empty out the clothes when she then wants to do something - watch TV, go to the park then do the I'd love to let you BUT we will need to tidy up x first.

Also when my dds apologise after time out I do make them say why eg"sorry I called x stupid because it was a nasty thing to say and it hurt her feelings" that's perhaps a bit too long but perhaps an easier example "sorry for hitting x because hitting is naughty it hurts"

it seems to have got them accepting that x y z is unacceptable and why IYSWIM

IGNORE IT.

She will grow out of it. They all do. Try to distract her. Is she bored?

If time out fails then you can impliment consequences.

Have you explained Time Out?

Have you told her what behaviour you want to see?

I would pick a few areas - eg keeping clothes tidily in the wardrobe - and reward her with a sticker on a chart moring and evening if the clothes are still tidy. Have a grab bag of little gifts (for my DS aged 4 I get matchbox cars from the charity shop and other small sweets or felt pens) so when she gets x amount of sticker on her chart she gets to pick something from the bag.

I have a 4.5 yr old DS with SN (inc behavior/communication and learning difficulties) until this approach I felt like I was always telling him off for something - my 9 yr old DD was an angel in comparison!

After a few weeks of following this method the change is amazing. He has only sat on the TO 4 times, many conversations go like this...
Me 'Please, DS, wash your hands lunch is ready'

Him 'no'

Me'I will ask you one more time to wash your hands, if you do not you will have to go to time out. Please wash your hands.'

him 'ok' off he trots 90% of time.

Before this scene would have involved me picking himup and taking him kicking to wash his hands or him not eating any lunch.

It is a whole strategy, not just to but you have to get the initial bit going (child led play, muvh/excessive (imho) praise etc) before it all slots into place.

Also if your dd is coming off the naughty step and looking for the next thing she wants to get up to, perhaps she needs more parent led play or stimulation? Not all DC can entertain themselves well.

Pasta = Prizes, brilliant! We did do a thing with stickers when she kept getting up in the night - ie, if she stayed in bed all night without getting up, she got a sticker. That worked well, so maybe something like that is the answer.

If she is bored (and the sort of behaviour she is displaying is typical of boredom), punishment is just silly. CarGirl's suggestions are very good - find a displacement activity for her need to fiddle with things.

That's very interesting about the fact she may be bored...this behaviour has really increased over the last couple of months - really since we found out we had to move house. I have been very preoccupied with finding a new place, then preparing for the move and I suppose I've been spending less time with her doing 'fun stuff' - in fact, we're moving tomorrow and all I've been doing for the past few weeks is packing stuff into boxes and doing runs to the charity shop. Perhaps it is a bit of an attention thing...

You could be speaking about my DC. Except he is 6 months older and it is still not getting better.

This week I have started a zero tolerance campaign to finally get through to him that his behaviour is not acceptable.

I do think that you have to be strict now. Perhaps if I were a bit stricter 6 or 8 months ago he would not still be doing things like writing on walls.

With him it is pure attention seeking (with a bit of curiosity thrown in) so he gets time out, or is not allowed to do something that he really likes.

The curiosity thing is difficult though, he is very interested in anything technical, cars, how things work. I can remember a cousin who put a knife into the toaster and it blew a fuse. His parents bought a new toaster and he promptly put a knife into that one to see if the same thing happened. I can see DS being like that, doing something "naughty" to see what happens.

Not sure what to do about that, tbh.

It sounds like she could be picking up on the stress & uncertainty of moving????

Perhaps once you are feeling calmer and less stressed her behaviour will improve.

I wouldn't launch into huge changes for the next couple of weeks as moving house is quite a big thing for children to cope with.

I don't know as my DS is only 3 but I think 4 is still too young for her to think much about the consequences of fiddling before she does it - particularly since button pressing in the car is different from turning on the dishwasher is different from drawing on the walls and she's unlikely to view them all as the same offence IYSWIM.

With my DS, he is allowed limited rations of fiddling with car buttons etc. at the end of which there is a set routine of putting everything back to how it was. He knows that there are rules to the button pressing, that he must avoid certain buttons, stop when I say (warning given first) and he's got to do the remedial action at the end. If he doesn't comply, he's hoiked straight off the buttons and I either just prevent him from getting to them, distract, or time him out depending on exactly what his behaviour was.

He's not allowed to touch the dishwasher, but is allowed carefully to put on as many CDs/tapes as he wishes. He can run the kitchen tap but no water to be sprayed, no plug to be put in - you get the picture. The limits and rules seem to work quite well for us at the moment....

It sounds about normal behaviour to me (around here anyway)! You just need to grow some eyes in the back of your head!!!

She's a little too young to understand why she shouldn't do something so you just need to keep vigilent and distract her away from doing these things and explain why she shouldn't. We have a 'on duty' thing here so that one of us has a rest from the constant 'what is he doing???').

She is just exploring the world and doesn't realise that she is being naughty (my sis runs a daycare centre in the States and I remember her saying 'the kids aren't emptying out the trash can onto the floor - they are learning about gravity!'). If you yell, she won't listen anyway and you'll end up feeling crappy about it. I wouldn't smack either - I was smacked as a child (always for something my sister did!) and it did no good whatsoever. I don't like smacking anyway but I know that some people do smack and I am not all preachy preachy about it.

The good news is ... this aparently makes her a very bright child (supposedly those who are very 'busy' are fast learners and very enquiring) and it does get better as she gets older. Her concentration span will get longer (so she can sit with a puzzle or book without getting into mischief) and if you don't desensitise her to a yelling or telling off, it will have more impact when she is older (for use in extremes, ie when she is in danger).

Yup, it sounds very much as if she may be bored/lacking attention/feeling stressed about the move. None of which deserve punishment .

God I love Mumsnet, this has given me so much of a better insight into what's actually going on. I couldn't see the wood for the trees. Of course it must be to do with the move. I have defintely been a bit more stressed than usual and I've been spending lots of time doing other stuff. I can't remember the last time when we got the drawing stuff or the playdoh out.

I think for now, I will just try to relax and once we're settled next week, I will make a real concerted effort to spend a bit of time doing some fun stuff, and I think I will try the Pasta for Prizes thing too. It's funny, when I wrote the first post, I was convinced it was just her being naughty and now I realize she's just bored and fed up because she' not getting much attention. Thanks Mumsnet ladies!