Really struggling with 6 (nearly 7) year old DS. Not listening, being aggressive, answering back. We're at the end of our tether. A bit long sorry :-(

[LackaDAISYcal]

DS will be 7 in a couple of months. He has always been quite challenging and after a few rough years with lots and lots of upheaval (moving house twice, new nursery, starting school, death of two grandparents, me being ill, two new siblings) we have been thinking he will settle down eventually.

To everyone on the outside he is a lovely, kind, polite young boy but at home he is a complete nightmare. We can't speak to him, without him having a hissy fit about it, we have to ask him over and over to leave his younger siblings alone, even getting him to do every day tasks is an effort. We've tried reasoning, treats and star charts, naughty step, sending him to his room, ignoring the good and praising the bad and I have even bought Alfie Kohn's unconditinal parenting in a bid to see if that can provide us with answers.

A typical spat will start with him being asked to do something (like washing his hands before dinner), which he ignores, after three or four times of asking, and DH and I getting more irate, he starts chelping back at us that he doesn't need to wash his hands, or we get an outright No. He then gets aggressive and tries to kick and punch when we ask him again (through gritted teeth), and will eventually go off to wash his hands, slamming doors and stairgates and thumping his way upstairs. He then comes back down all sweetness and light and like nothing has happened. This happens at least 10 times in a day, more at weekends and we just don't know how to handle him any more, especially as he is too big for us to just pick him up and deposit him in his room.

DH and I just seem to be barking at him all the time as it seems the only way to get him to listen, and I hate it . The whole family is stressed out with all the aggro and his little sister who worships him is starting to copy his behaviour

We need some peace and harmony but don't know how to get it, or even if this is normal and we just have to grin and bear it, if it's our fault or his fault or what.

We're also sleep deprived with a 20 week old baby and it is making life very difficult indeed

Heeeeeeeeelp...please.

What a nightmare for you. You have my sympathies.

As you have tried all the obvious things already, possibly get your GP to refer him to the local child psychiatrist. I say this not because I think there is anything crazily wrong with him, but because you will be able to get 1:1 top quality advice about what to do from a proper expert, which in turn will take a lot of the strain off your family.

We did this with DS1 at the school's suggestion (DS1 incidentally has mild ADD and something called Difficult Temperament, and was causing a lot of problems at the time at home and at school, wearing us all out) and it worked a treat. He is an absolutely brilliantly behaved boy now most of the time.

They do not label your child as a nutter or refer you to Social Services or anything like that. They just want to help, and have a lot of resources at their disposal.

Poor you - last thing you need with a small baby - though maybe that's part of it - is it his way of getting some attention? Am sure you've thought of that. Still though hitting and kicking at that age is a most definite no and if he's sweetness and light at school (many of us know that syndrome so well ), then he more than understands, so you have to do zero tolerance on it at home. But howabout instead of repeated nagging, have a sit down meeting with you DH and him. Not a we're-telling-you-off meet, more a okay let's talk about this as we don't like ourselves nagging you all the time. Make it a bit of a treat even - have a bowl of nice nibbles on the table, good juice, treat him as an equal and let him talk, but by the end of it agree simply what's acceptable and what's not - he can have a say in that too - ie you're not to nag me if I do it, etc. Once he's agreed, then put it into action - eg handwashing. I've told my son he just has to do it. I don't nag, as I shouldn't have to, so I'll tell him once then it's up to him. But the consequence is that if he doesn't wash his hands he gets nothing to eat. If he kicks off, he goes to his room until he apologises - and of course he still has to wash his hands. Big thing is not to lose it, not to keep the nagging cycle going, just ignore him, keep calm and be firm. Good luck - I more than feel your pain

thanks boffinmum. We had thought about that but he goes ballistic at the mere mention of taking him to the doctors.

I have depression and have contact with the MH nurse at our doctor's surgery so thought of starting with her.

I feel so responsible for his behaviour as my depression has meant that I've done a lot of pretty poor parenting in the past and when I was at my lowest point I was very grumpy and irritable and didn't deal with him as best I could . I'm at the point now though that I'm almost back to my normal self (it has taken me nearly three years to get here) and am looking back thinking that I have made him onto the boy that he is. DH thinks I'm being too hard on myself, but it's difficult not to be.

DH and I have wondered whether he has some sort of behavioural/learning problems as he struggles a lot at school, but the school don't seem too concerned about it.

He is also still wetting the bed on a regular basis as well and I know this causes him a lot of distress. He has started not telling us and getting his clothes on before we get up, even though we have never made him feel like he is responsible for it and explained that it's hormonal and not his fault. We've never shouted at him or been angry at him over it either.

He was such a sunny little boy as well, and when he isn't being like this is really kind and thoughtful.

smee, great advice there thanks

we get a lot of "it's all about DD and DS2, never about me" so there is some element of attention seeking in there. He tends to get under our feet when we are carrying the baby, or suddenly want to give me hugs and kisses when I'm trying to feed the baby and then acts all injured when I have to say Not now.

I thought this morning that he seems really distracted by everything as well (is that an age thing??) and he genuinely doesn't register that he is being spoken to, so when we raise our voices he gets a fright as he is (in his mind) being shouted at out of nowhere and that causes him to just kick off. Which is fair enough really.

DH said that he was standing next to him talking to him and getting no response, so toughed his shoulder to get his attention and DS1 nearly jumped out of his skin, like he hadn't even realised DH was there....even thought they were out fishing together.

Well maybe get his hearing tested too..? Though boys of that age are in their own little world most of the time. I think that's completely normal. But tbh if I hadn't heard something, then someone started telling me off I'd probably kick off too. Hope you find a better way through soon. Sounds like you all need it.

DAISY this was being thrashed out on another thread yesterday
maybe you and alwaysmoving can swap notes

another thing he does, once he has set about doing whatever he has been asked, is to go sooo slowly, taking 20 minutes over getting dressed some mornings, and hanging on the banister when going upstairs at snails pace...when his dinner is on the table. I swear he does it just to get a reaction as he knows it winds up up.

Eating can cause huge ructions as well....and I won't even start on homework.

It just seems there is no aspect of his life that he doesn't fight about (unless it's being allowed a snack or some Wii time (and that isn't very often..twice a month at the most)

his hearing is fine smee; he was tested last year at school and can hear the word chocolate whispered at fifty paces

I'll check that out rose, thanks

Daisy, from what you have said in your last post I think it would actually be good for the doctor to see him in a ballistic state, and I am more certain than ever he needs the psychiatrist's input.

Really the parenting you have done in the past is not important right now, it is what you do in the future that will determine how this pans out.

The very fact you are seeking advice tells me you are a good parent, and I have every confidence in you sorting this out to your satisfaction. He really is being very challenging. It is a lot to endure on a day-to-day basis, hence the need to share the load with professionals. Avoid lower level people like the MH nurse, and get yourself straight to the top. Remember he has the potential to be a lovely kid, you have identified this yourself.

Smee is talking good sense too IMO and a family confab with snacks would be a good holding position, as would taking him out on his own for some 1:1 time to shift the emotional dynamic a bit. Could one of you join a adult/kid karate class with him or something like that (just a suggestion)? And then go for hot chocolate and cakes afterwards each week? Gives you something to talk about rather than handwashing or bedtimes or whatever.

My son can hear 'chocolate' at vast distances too..

I would agree about going to see GP who may be able to arrange referral to a Child Psych (you may not even have to take him to the GP's with you for initial appointment if he is reluctant - in my case they could see how stressed I was and so made referral on that basis).

We did this when my son was 5, and displaying similar behaviour, plus at school. IME the follow up is more about you than about him - initially the Child Psych only saw him at the first appointment for about 20 mins, just chatting, then all subsequent appointments were for my husband and I, discussing discipline techniques and strategies for a more harmonious family life. After 6 or so sessions like that we then saw them for a couple of annual reviews to check we were still on track.

Basically I think the main point of it all for us, alongside getting decent discipline advice, was feeling we were doing something and taking some control of the situation.

Because inevitably, things happen in phases and kids move on, but it helps get you through one difficult bit and on to the next. Good luck.

He does get lots of one to one time, but mostly with his Dad who takes him fishing every other weekend (weather permitting) and to swimming on a Saturday then they go for a drink and snack together. His Dad used to work away so I used to get the brunt of it all, but now DH is home again full time, he seems to be getting the lion's share of it. DH has actually said to me that he's beginning to wish he could disappear again on Sunday evenings for a quiet life

and he is a lovely boy; we are always being told this by friends and relatives and the mums of his schoolmates when he has been round for tea.

(apparently I was the same when I was a child...nightmare at home, sweetness and light elsewhere, so when I talked to my big sis about it (she is 9 years older and did a lot of looking after me when I was little) she just laughs and says "what goes around comes around")

sounds like a very positive experience lbandm. I suppose I'm scared of the whole process where psychs and children are concerned (which is odd as I see one myself at the minute for dealing with my own depression). Mainly how my own inadequacies the fact that I can't cope will be viewed.

Don't anxt LackaDaisy. Try changing the pattern yourselves and if that doesn't work get some help. You have to see it as help not a criticism of you. + as he's lovely everywhere else, you've obviously far from lost him. Am sure you'll work it through, just do something different and see..

• why not get DS into a weekend activity that allows DH to have a coffee and a read of the paper. They can still have snacks, etc afterwards and spend time together. We only stay sane at the weekends by ensuring we both get some time just to have space. Even if it's just half an hour, somehow it makes everything alright.

Honestly, I never felt any judgement in any way from the Psych, she was unbiased and friendly and helpful, as I suspect most would be.

I think they are impressed when parents turn for help, we are the ones not hiding anything. That has to be a good thing. Impressed is not the right word, but I had very little sleep last night, but you know what I mean.

Also, if any reassurance, they were very reluctant to make any kind of diagnosis, as I think they would be unless there were something glaringly obvious. THey told us he was a bit 'socially awkward' and gave us a few tips on helping him through it, but they certainly focussed more on our behaviour towards him, and how that might change his behaviour, than any aspect of him.

I'm going to have a trawl through How to Talk.. again, and the Alfie Kohn book and then we'll sit down with him and talk about things.

I suppose I'm scared of what he'll tell a psych, because when I was really ill and not coping with life, let alone children, I resorted to smacking on several occasions . I'm not proud of that and have apologised to him and explained about how ill I was/ I can't remember the last time he was disciplined in this way, but he regularly reminds me of it and tells it like he was beaten to a pulp on a daily basis as it has obviously affected him very deeply. And I know that's my fault

See if you can get something new from your book then, even doing something small will make you feel you are taking some control and actually doing something.

YOu've apologised for smacking him, I've smacked my own son at times, much good its done me/him. Feel much better for not doing it anymore. But I am not perfect, and he has pushed my buttons at times like no one else I've ever come across.

But don't keep on going over it with your son, even if he brings it up. You've apologised so let it stop there and then hopefully he will stop thinking about it. It sounds like a very effective means of guilt tripping you, as he obviously knows you feel bad. He sounds like a very bright boy, as is mine.

And with that in mind, I very much doubt he would ever tell anyone else, such as a Dr. He wants to take things out on you by the sounds of it, but I'm sure he still thinks you're the best mum in the world.

None of this is meant to sound patronising by the way, I reckon in one month it'll be a bit better, and then in a year, it'll be like you are in another place. And you'll find yourself thinking, 'gosh, we haven't had that argument in a while...'. All the best.

If it makes you feel any better, one of my dearest most gentle friends dislocated his dd's shoulder when she was tantrumming - he was probably unlucky, as he yanked her up from the floor, but still she ended up in A&E. She's 13 now and still lobs it back at him - it's gone down in family legend in fact and he still has nightmares about it. We all do things we regret and are embarrassed about. Move on and don't let DS button press your guilt.

My DS is 9 and sounds exactly the same. The slightest thing will set him off. All sweetness and light when at school and at Grandma's (who thinks the sun shines out of his backside). He is so easily distracted, never goes to do something straight away. Going to brush teeth can take ages, because he will go to his bedroom first and start playing with something. Just asking him to remove his elbow from the table which is head is resting on whilst eating causes a major hissy fit.

Not much help I know, but I think my DS is improving very slightly with maturity. You are not on your own, good luck.

good points about the guilt thing, and he is very bright...in fact a bit too clever for his own good at times which often gets him in trouble at school for shouting out in class.

and lol, we will be in a different place in a year......in the middle of the terrible twos/troublesome threes with DD

I sometimes think I wasn't cut out for children. babies I love and can do with one hand tied behind my back....it all goes wrong when they start answering back though

oh daphnemoon, I feel your pain. It's using cutlery at all that causes aggro here!

So take his food away. Honestly, don't shout, just be calm and insist. Have a bribe of a fab pudding up your sleeve - ice cream if he uses his cutlery, nothing if he doesn't.

We have threatened to take his food away smee, but we are loathe to push it regarding food as he is definately worse if he hasn't eaten properly. He picks like a sparrow most of the time, so we want to try and ensure he gets some calories in him. However, I do realise that empty threats aren't really helpful as it just reinforces that nothing will happen in spite of what mum and dad say.

He often spends mealtimes in isolation as he will eat that way....kind of goes against Alfie Kohn's teaching though.

Right, I am in danger of ignoring my other two.....DD is 22 months and can say very clearly "pooter away mummy"

thanks for all the advice and for making me feel a wee bit better about our lot

Pooter away. Sweet
Don't threaten or get cross, just do it. Doesn't have to be a massive deal, just something that isn't on so it has a consequence. Honestly it really works here.