4 year old "informally" suspended from pre-school...

[specialmagiclady]

3 times in the last fortnight he's been excluded from the class for hurting children who "aren't doing what I want" and just not being sorry at all.

For the safety of other children I've been asked not to take him in again either a) for a period of a couple of weeks or b) until we can put an Individual Education Plan in place.

If i don't take him in for a couple of weeks that will take us over the Easter holidays too... so effectively 4 weeks out.

As far as I'm concerned that's a punishment for me as much as him.

What can I do?

What does he say when you talk to him about playing nicely, sharing, turn taking etc? When is his birthday - if he is a summer baby then he may well have less well developed empathy skills than those born Sept IYSWIM

blimey that's awful, they're fobbing you off

Think it sounds like a bit of a cop out on their part IMO, lots of 4 year olds can be quite rough.
Can't you reason with the staff about this?

Why aren't they supervising him properly?

Er... it's not up to you to set up an IEP, it's for the school to get their act together and do it. There is absolutely no reason why they can't do that tomorrow it they wanted to.

An IEP is just an action plan of what the school is going to do. It should include a target (or a couple of targets) e.g. To play a co-operative game with one other child for two minutes once a day. It should also include well thought out strategies about how the school is going to help your ds achieve this, with specifics about who is going to do what. E.g. After story time, the TA will choose one other child to come and play a co-operative game with ds and will stay with ds to ensure it goes smoothly.

The school will need to identify what is triggering the "hurting". They should be able to do this quite simply by thinking about what happened immediately before the incidents to set them off and what were the particular circumstances in which they happened e.g. is it about sharing toys, not being able to negotiate with others, getting freaked out if others come to close to him etc. Once they have worked out what the cause is, they should be able to identify suitabale targets fairly easily.

Ask to speak to the SENCO (special needs co-ordinator) of the school to help set up a plan. It's pretty crap of the school to have passed the buck back to you.

That sounds like an over-reaction on their part. What do you mean by 'hurting'? Just hitting? Biting? Many children lash out sometimes, and 3 times in a fortnight is not the same as every day.

OP - phone your LEA's parent partnership officer tomorrow. There will be a number on their website. Is this a pre-school attached to a school?

Agree with neolara, the school are being rubbish. Try contacting your local Parenting Partnership as they should be able to help you. They are either part of your local council or are contracted out. Either way they are a statutory requirement for the council to provide so the council can direct you to them.

X-posted with cornsilk, who was much more succinct!

LOL malkuth!

There is no such thing as an "informal" suspension.

Is this an LEA nursery?

If it is, and they want to reduce his timetable, they will need to provide a PSP (Pastoral Support Plan) showing the difficulties he is having, the possible triggers, and any strategies they are using to support him. A reduced timetable might mean that he is in nursery for an hour a day, rather than his 2.5 hour session.

This should then be reviewed every two weeks with time in nursery being built up gradually after that if the strategies are working.

If it is a fixed term exclusion, then I don't think it can be for more than 3 days.

Sorry - that first line was absolutely not getting at you! I presumed that it was a phrase that the nursery had used with you and wanted you to know that they are talking rubbish!

Phone these people for advice. I think they are not working within the law.

Thanks everyone. Sorry to disappear on you - tea, bed and then the arrival of my lovely new dressing table interrupted me.

First, let me clear a couple of things up: The school is going to do an IEP, but we[teacher, head/deputy head etc]'re all meeting up to talk about it - I presume I'll have some kind of input so they can find sanctions that actually work on him and discuss next moves etc. It's not the violence that's the issue, it's the total lack of remorse that is concerning everyone, myself included. He plainly needs to learn that it's not good for him to hurt people (couple of bites and one incident with a hoop, a neck and a bicycle) They are not finding the right punishments at the moment - I'm having trouble with this at home too.

I am the one who used the word "suspension" - they were at pains to say "we're asking if you want to remove him for a week or two". but then said, if it happens again the next step is suspension.

Frankly, I'm looking forward to being able to agree a strategy to deal with this behaviour which is rather troubling - he's a not-listener, defiant etc. But I do feel that rather than supporting me, the school's on the attack.

Also - actually, nobody has had to go to A&E - couple of bruises. What would they do if he genuinely hurt someone really properly? Surely this approach is totally disproportionate.

Finally - if he has an IEP does that mean he's "marked" as a bad boy. He isn't - he's just in a world of his own and trying to work out where he is in the pecking order of the class. The two people he's had fracas with are the biggest/oldest in the class and Definitely Alpha types. Anyway - will he be labelled as a baddy if he gets and IEP?

In answer to other questions, he's Feb birthday and he's pretty good at sharing with his brother - occasional battles but can be worked out if you ask him to sort it out for himself. His real problem is this pecking order issue.... at home too (am going to have to toughen up for a bit, I suspect.)

Is he physically big for his age? Because this does seem a little bit of an excessive flap about what sounds like within-normal-range 4-year-old-ness: small children don't have much impulse control or empathy and haven't yet learned that it's expedient to pretend to be sorry when you're not, and feel that your behaviour was justified. TBH, if the people he is hitting are the biggest/oldest, it's not that impossible that they started it and he hit back - in which case why would he feel remorseful?
(NOt saying that it is always justified to hit back, but the concept of 'reasonable force in self defence' is, you know, a bit much for a 4-year-old to be expected to understand).

An IEP is just a plan to ensure he gets the help and support he needs, plenty of children have them for all kinds of reasons and it will not mark him out at all. If you are worried he is getting that kind of label, I think that is something you should talk to the school about. There reaction does seem extreme, they should be helping him to stay in pre-school, not pushing him out. 2 weeks is a long time for a 4 year old and he may find it even harder to fit back in when he returns. i would explain you are not happy with this suggestion and ask what else they suggest. Also is there someone who can go with you to the meeting as that can help to ensure you get all your points across.

Sorry this is a bit of a ramble, hope you get a positive solution

please don't worry, lots of children have IEPs for all sorts of reasons.

Good teachers know that some children need alot of help and support to settle in to school but that they may go on to have very successful lives at school. The early years are not a reflection of a whole school career.

He is very very young, try to not worry. Not showing remorse is I believe not unusual still at this age - he just needs more time to mature.

And the school's approach sounds unprofessional. There is nothing to be gained by simply making him 'go away' for a few weeks. They need to be putting in place effective strategies and working with him, not excluding him for needing extra help.

I'd definitely talk to your LEA

He's not physically big but he's bright so I think that puts him up the pecking order into a position to be wanting to be at the top, IYSWIM.

I think he does feel that the others are "starting it" but in the hoop/neck/bike incident she started it by not doing what he wanted, nothing active.

I certainly think that we're all guilty of putting adult labels on his child behaviour - he is a frustrating little shit sometimes but they're obviously not coping well with him.

I feel confident I'll be able to get my points across - I'm a confident person and I'm not feeling confrontational, which can make my confidence spill into aggression...

Thanks for all your help, as ever, MNers. Will report back after meeting tomorrow. I'm going go and do the washing up arrange fripperies on my new dressing table.

Like Miss Mapp, I don't think that you should be removing him for the next two weeks. Perhaps you could consider shortening his sessions for a week, combined with some effective strategies from the pre-school, which should mean that he has some successful times with his friends. Taking him out will only serve to alienate him further, and give him more of a label.

Review his shortened sessions after a week, and start to increase them if things have gone well. If he is struggling to cope on shorter sessions, then the pre-school need to be looking at his trigger points (transitions between activities? Outdoor play? Certain combinations of friends?) and work on strategies to help him develop the appropriate verbal and non-verbal strategies.

Have you seen any of these behaviours at home or on playdates?

I think that sounds very sensible. I will try and get them away from hysterical mood.

Goodness - almost didn't recognise you there, Mrs Bell.

All much calmer now - have had meeting with teacher and she had calmed down a lot. We agreed immediately that exclusion was The Wrong Answer.

Have put in place some new rules that are same at home and school and we're all going to "sit on" him a bit and help him to solve problems without resorting to violence etc.

She said one of the things that threw her was that he is so forward developmentally generally that she couldn't believe he hadn't mastered the simple "hitting is bad" thing.

Anyway, thanks for being so supportive everyone - it's easy to think that if school is cocking it up your child must be unmanageable/Satan in a pirate costume etc...