Help.....this is really getting me and DH down....DD aged 5 going on 21. Tantrums galore.....

[whispywhisp]

All this week we have had major problems with our DD2, who is just 5yrs old, throwing the most awful tantrums in the mornings before going to school and again at bedtime.

She simply refuses to get ready for school. If she had her way she'd go to school in her pj's, with scruffy hair, dirty teeth and her bladder full. That sums it up really...she refuses to get dressed, brush her hair, clean her teeth and do a wee...even if either DH or I offer to help her she just screams 'NO!' and runs away. Yesterday morning she got herself undressed and climbed back into bed.

I even get up earlier in the mornings now (6am, instead of the usual 7am) just so I can devote more time to her to try and stop her acting like this. I get everything ready (lunchboxes etc) the night before and she only has to get herself up and do these few jobs every morning.

We have a repeat episode in the evenings although it doesn't seem to be as bad because she knows if she doesn't do as she's told she won't have time to read, which she loves doing, at bedtime.

I spoke to her teacher yesterday morning and asked if she was good at school. The answer was yes, absolutely brilliant and she has 'impeccable manners', which was obviously great to hear. She said she would speak to DD2 during the day, which she did, and she told DD2 that when she goes back to school today she wants to hear that she's been good at home.

She was awful this morning - the worst I've seen her. I got her to school and spoke to her teacher again and asked that her name be placed on the cloud on the classroom wall (where naughty kids have their names put) and her teacher told her to go and find her name and put it on the cloud. She was crying as she did it and yes I felt really awful suggesting it but I told her if she didn't do as she was told I would ask that her name be placed there.

Needless to say I rang the school this morning to make sure she was ok (not sobbing in the corner of the classroom) and she was fine.

What do we do? Where are we going wrong? I have an elder daughter (10) who is just so well behaved and I just can't understand why I have the complete opposite with DD2. I call her my 'evil' child and she is! Anyone got any ideas?

I've done the smiley face chart, taking toys away, banning tv, banning treats...I've even stopped her going to parties and even cancelled her own birthday party earlier this month, losing the deposit, because she was so horrible and simply didn't deserve anything nice.

Help!

I have a 5yr old dd who can be a bit of a pain in the morning getting ready for school. But she is more of a distracted dawdler, or too busy playing with her sister to get ready - she doesn't strop or tantrum about it.

But it does leave us in a mad rush at the end, me getting stressed and irritable before we're even out the door (and dd2 is tricky atm as she wants to do EVERYTHING herself, and can't because she's only 2 )

So rather than me go ON and ON at dd1 to get dressed/do teeth/wash face etc a million times I only tell her up to 3 times. After the 3rd time, I will say "Right, dd1, I'm not telling you to get dressed again. We will leave for school when you are ready. If we are late, which we will be, I will take you into class and ask YOU to tell Mrs X why we are late today. Ok?"

We've sailed close to the wind a few times but haven't been late yet

Worth a go with your dd?

WWell stop calling her 'evil' for a start. That is so horrible and it's self-fulfilling I hope she doesn't hear you calling her that.And never make comparisons with ther elder sister. You are calling her horrible and evil is it any wonder she acts up?

She needs you to help build her self-esteem which sounds very low.

I would begin with praising her achievements, however small, use behaviour reward charts and lots and lots of praise for the smallest things she does right.Ignore difficult behaviour as much as possible. Give her lots of cuddles and kisses and tell her how proud you are of her.

Did you honestly cancel her own birthday party?!

Only just read that last sentence of OP

That does seem a bit harsh

Hi Whispywhisp. Just wanted to say you are not alone! We have just been through the same thing with our DD. She would be fine during breakfast but the minute we said get ready all hell broke loose. We like you did the removing of favorite toys etc but nothing worked. We have had many a morning when we drove to school in floods of tears. We also got up earlier so we didn't have to rush her (which I felt we were doing) I also began to have her school clothes laid out ready so I could lay them on the bed and say get ready. To get her to go upstairs we started a "race" thing. I bet I can get upstairs before you! I am the leader kind of thing. At first she was don't care but quickly she would push me out of the way to get upstairs first. Getting dressed was the worst. For a while if we couldn't get her upstairs we did it downstairs while she watched TV. Anything to distract her. I would completely ignor her screaming and be talking to my DH. She didn't like us not talking to her and would pull on my sleeve (which I ignored) For every item she put on she would get a massive amount of praise "wow don't you look nice" etc. When it got so bad we would simply walk away, I would tell her we would be late for school and that Mummy and Daddy would be told off because of her behaviour. Slowly she started to come round. But it was slowly. I know it is of little help but you are not the only one to suffer this. Seems a very common phase. In my opinion I don't think you should have made the teacher put her name on the naughty cloud. Only because this behaviour happens at home not school and as she hasn't been naughty at school it will be hard for her to understand why she is being punished there. Also if the teacher says her behaviour is very good I think it is unfair to make the teacher look as if she is punishing her. Sorry not much help but hang in there.

Umm, I think that perhaps you have cast DD in the role of "naughty child". So without any option to be anything else at home, she is playing her allocated role.

You know she has the capacity to be "good" at school.

You need to work out how to bring out that capacity at home.

I don't have children that age, so cant come up with practical suggestions. But I was the "Good" 2nd DD, my elder sister the "Naughty Girl". It was a very unhelpful rut to be stuck in. My sister was a really difficult child. But being typecast simply gave her a licence to be as naughty as possible.

I think you need to re-configure how you see your DD in your head. And bear in mind she is 5. Your elder DD at 10 will be substantially more able and mature. Perhaps you are expecting too much of your younger in comparison to elder.

It sounds like you're having a hard time in the mornings. What year is she in, Reception or Yr1? Are you sure there's not something going on at school: it sounds to me like she doesn't want to go there (the bedtime trouble because she knows morning ie school is on its way). Maybe being so good at school is part of the problem: maybe she feels she has to keep up something she can't.
My DS2 is 5 and does find it really hard to concentrate in the morning, they just don't get the idea of time really.
I would try to talk to her or get her to draw how she feels at school. IS there another child who might be upsetting her?
Good luck: I know how frustrating hard behaviour can be

Cancelling her party was not harsh, by any means. I had told her many times beforehand if she didn't do as she was told I would cancel it...I do not threaten to do something and not see it thru. I was not going to spend over £100 for a party when she likes to kick, thump etc ME.

I do not caller her evil...that is a word I have used to other adults, not to her. I would never be that cruel.

I compare her to her elder sister..of course I do, like so many other Mums I'm sure. Again the comparisons are made between adults - not with the kids themselves. She is only 5yrs old - my comparisons go back to when DD1 was 5yrs old. We never had this behaviour with her.

Do I recognise and praise her achievements/good behaviour? Of course I do!

Bloody hell. You've really laid into me on this one. What do you take me for? Of course I would ignore bad behaviour as much as possible but not at 8am in the mornings when we have to be out the door by 5 past. I'm the first to give praise and attention when a child is good and to ignore the naughty behaviour but sometimes that just isn't possible when time is against you.

I don't believe I have "laid into you"

I actually responded to your OP to share my own experience of difficult mornings and posted what strategies I use

I added my opinion on the cancelled birthday party, which I still believe was a harsh call on your part... but is my opinion only

You asked for help - don't slate the responses

Whispywisp I think you need to take a step back, in your OP you:
a) call your daughter evil
B) you compare her with her fabulous big sister
c) cancelled her birthday party and other treats

a+b+c = very upset little girl who is fighting to gain attention from you and the only way she knows to get your attention is to act up.

You need to

a) tell your daughter how lovely she is, how proud you are of her teachers report this morning
b) take time to think about how much you love dd, and all her positive traits
c) tell dd that if she can do; this, this and this - 10 times (doesn't have to be in a row) then she can have a party.

Can you tell us your routine with DD to help us help you.

We can only go off what we have read whispywhisp, you did not explain that until now. I'm sorry if you feel we've 'laid into' you.

She is in Year R. I agree putting her name on the cloud at school isn't ideal but having something go wrong at school would be quite a lot for her...she loves school and is so good at school. Taking toys away for her doesn't seem to bother her at all. Don't think I liked doing it because I didn't. I suggested it to the teacher and she agreed to it. I felt quite guilty about it afterwards that I rang the school this morning to make sure she was ok, which she was.

When I'm confronted with a DH who has all the patience in the world saying to me 'where did we go wrong' this morning...and I haven't an answer for him its so hard to know what to do.

I'm the first in the queue to give out praise for being good. I learnt years ago never to give attention to being naughty because, even at this young age, they can suss out how to get a parent's attention.

Perhaps with having had a very poorly DD1 who has been in and out of hospital and Drs surgeries for the last year or so DD2 feels left out, I don't know, but perhaps I need to address that to and have some quality time with DD2 - some one to one. I would love to have more spare time with both of them as would DH but we both work and that spare time never seems to materialise very often.

notnowbernard - so if you were faced with paying over £100 for a party and had a child who simply refuses to do as she's told, scream, shout, pinch, kick, thump and you threatened 'if you do that again I will cancel your party'....and they did it again...you would still go thru with it? Surely a child learns from depravation? The invites were just about to go out. Of course I would have loved her to have a party but forking out that sort of cash for a child who pushes my patience to the limit isn't right?

I do agree with you having to follow through on your punishment whispywhisp but I might have chosen a different threat. It's a tough enough job as it is and I feel for you I really do but it sounds as though you might already know some of the real issues behind her behaviour. Maybe she does feel she doesn't get as much atttention as her older sister and you need to address this first.

I'll be really honest, I don't think I'd threaten to cancel the party, so wouldn't have to wrestle with the dilemma of following the threat through or not

I agree, if you threaten a consequence, you have to see it through. It just seemed a harsh consequence, for a just 5yr old... especially as it seems it's been a bit of an unsettling time for her and her sibling (as you mentioned in your later post)

Twims

Routine...

7am...lamp on, start to wake her up, take up her drink and help her get out of bed and put dressing gown on to come downstairs.

Breakfast.

7.30am (ish) back upstairs to have a wee, do teeth and get dressed.

8am - out of the door and walk to school. Chatting and talking about school etc etc.

School.

3pm...pick up from school, make sure they've both had good days and walk home.

Just before 4pm...get home. If she wants to get changed I let her and she leaves uniform on her bed for me to hang up.

Has a drink and I let her out into the back garden to play or she'll watch a bit of tv whilst I cook tea.

5ish - tea on table and she tends to eat pretty much what I give her - plenty of veg etc. I cook good wholesome food.

6ish - time for bath etc and into pj's.

7ish - get ready for bed - teeth, wee and a good half hour with her books - she can read and loves to read.

Lights out by 7.30pm.

In all that time I do not tell her that her sister is better than her. I do not tell her that she is evil. I get as much done as I can during the day, work permitting, so to have time with both the children when they are at home. If she is good I tell her she is good. I always give her a kiss before she goes to school and when she goes to sleep and always tell her that I love her and I always tell both the children how good they are and I thank them for being good. I do not shout, snap, swear, smack etc etc. If time allows when DD2 is naughty I walk away.

I totally agree with Lenin's thread - I think that the 1-1 time sounds a good plan.

Do you think the behaviour is linked to tiredness? Our 4 year old (full-time, in reception) is being difficult at bedtimes at the moment. We have been trying to talk to her and reason with her, which isn't working. I think we are just going to have to ignore the tantrum and concentrate on physically getting her to bed.

She has 12hrs sleep at night. She has always been one to love her sleep. Even at weekends we stick to the 7-7.30pm to bed time routine. I know they are doing a lot at school - and by the end of the week she is very tired but I can't do anymore than make sure she has 12hrs. She eats really well and loves her food. She drinks well too. I just wish when I ask her to do something I am not met with a screaming angry 'NO!' because it is so upsetting for me and DH and nothing from us seems to bring her out of her tantrum moments. I've tried to softly softly approach and given her a hug and she'll say sorry etc but I don't even know if that's the best way of dealing with it cos it feels like I'm the one giving in.

I didn't mean to lay into you, but had picked up on the comparisons, and label that you admitted you use for her - to her face or not it is the one you have in your mind for her, and share in discussion with other adults.

Starting school is a big deal. Children are being asked to be "grown up" all day long. Home is the place where they can be uncensored.

Does she not actually want to go if she's getting undressed? If she does want to go, your going to have to re inforce again and again that she needs to get certain things done before going out the door.

Or actually take her one day in her PJs.

It's not just getting enough sleep though, is it? How long has your dd been at school? I think mine is just not used to it yet (even though she was used to being away from home during weekdays - either in nursery for 2 and a half hours or with her childminder).

I completely sympathise with your sentence:

'I just wish when I ask her to do something I am not met with a screaming angry 'NO!' because it is so upsetting for me and DH and nothing from us seems to bring her out of her tantrum moments.'

It's hard isn't it.

Thanks lenin.

DD1 is ok. She has some medical issues and has spent more time off school than in just lately. I try to keep DD1's health separate from DD2....last couple of times we've had to blue-light DD1 to hospital I've always made sure DD2 is left with a good friend and she has a great time.

DD1's also been the victim with a bully just before half-term which was dreadful so DH and I were constantly in and out of the school (separate school to DD2) trying to sort that out but I did make absolutely sure I spent time with DD2 and did normal stuff like put her into school and pick her up despite being asked to go into DD1's school for this and that meeting because I felt I wasn't giving her enough of my attention too. Yes it was stressful here just before half-term and I'm sure DD2 picked up on it but sometimes its just impossible to be here, there and everywhere without kids picking up on it.

Whispy, the more you post the more it's obvious that the last few months have been really difficult

I guess she was going to react in one way or another, wasn't she? I remember hearing the phrase "children are the barometer of our emotions" (or something like that anyway)

Hope things get better for you all