Help.....this is really getting me and DH down....DD aged 5 going on 21. Tantrums galore.....

[whispywhisp]

All this week we have had major problems with our DD2, who is just 5yrs old, throwing the most awful tantrums in the mornings before going to school and again at bedtime.

She simply refuses to get ready for school. If she had her way she'd go to school in her pj's, with scruffy hair, dirty teeth and her bladder full. That sums it up really...she refuses to get dressed, brush her hair, clean her teeth and do a wee...even if either DH or I offer to help her she just screams 'NO!' and runs away. Yesterday morning she got herself undressed and climbed back into bed.

I even get up earlier in the mornings now (6am, instead of the usual 7am) just so I can devote more time to her to try and stop her acting like this. I get everything ready (lunchboxes etc) the night before and she only has to get herself up and do these few jobs every morning.

We have a repeat episode in the evenings although it doesn't seem to be as bad because she knows if she doesn't do as she's told she won't have time to read, which she loves doing, at bedtime.

I spoke to her teacher yesterday morning and asked if she was good at school. The answer was yes, absolutely brilliant and she has 'impeccable manners', which was obviously great to hear. She said she would speak to DD2 during the day, which she did, and she told DD2 that when she goes back to school today she wants to hear that she's been good at home.

She was awful this morning - the worst I've seen her. I got her to school and spoke to her teacher again and asked that her name be placed on the cloud on the classroom wall (where naughty kids have their names put) and her teacher told her to go and find her name and put it on the cloud. She was crying as she did it and yes I felt really awful suggesting it but I told her if she didn't do as she was told I would ask that her name be placed there.

Needless to say I rang the school this morning to make sure she was ok (not sobbing in the corner of the classroom) and she was fine.

What do we do? Where are we going wrong? I have an elder daughter (10) who is just so well behaved and I just can't understand why I have the complete opposite with DD2. I call her my 'evil' child and she is! Anyone got any ideas?

I've done the smiley face chart, taking toys away, banning tv, banning treats...I've even stopped her going to parties and even cancelled her own birthday party earlier this month, losing the deposit, because she was so horrible and simply didn't deserve anything nice.

Help!

rempy, I think you are right:

'Starting school is a big deal. Children are being asked to be "grown up" all day long.'

hewlett...she's been at school since Sept and went full time by October. She is a bright child. She is doing far more at her age, academically, than DD1 was. Again a comparison but that's how I know they are pushing them along far earlier nowadays which explains why she is tired when she comes out at 3pm. It can take us an hour to walk home sometimes because she drags her feet then other days she'll skip home. She's up one minute and down the next.

I am not a strict Mum and nor is DH strict. In fact DH is a very laid back bloke and gives in far more than I do but even he was despairing this morning. Again I shouldn't compare but when I was DD2's age, all those years ago, I had parents who were strict and wouldn't stand for half of what I let my two get away with. Yes, I had considered letting DD2 go to school in her pj's but I know she would scream at that too.

It sounds like like you've all had a lot on your plate recently, whispywhisp.

x-posts. My dd started in Sept too. I wonder in her case if half-term actually didn't help (she spent time with her childminder and visited old haunts - one night last week she said she wished she could go back to nursery).

The barometer thing - whispy, just how stressed do you feel in the mornings? Because if you are wound up you simply will not be able to hide it completely. So DD will pick it up and run with it - its not intentional as such, but as notbernard has said, they reflect us adults and our complex emotions without a full range of expression - hence the default tantrum.

Do you have to be out the door yourself? If not, can you take a deep breath one day, and say "if we are late, we are late" and let things go at her pace?

Yes I have. DH has suffered too. Having our eldest daughter bullied by a boy in her year was hard enough especially as it was to do with sexual harrassment. It was dreadfully upsetting and something I never want either of my kids to go thru again. DD1's health is very up and down. She is due back into hospital next month. Yes...in hindsight, I guess DD2 has been pushed to one side and now when I think about it I feel incredibly guilty but then again I can't divide myself up and give a piece to everyone. Life has been really hard and I somehow manage to cope with a DH who is regularly away with work, does incredibly long hours, plus I work and get no help with the children from family at all....even when DD1 had the bullying problem no-one in my family wanted to know/were interested. My mates were great which helped enormously but its upsetting that even my immediate family didn't give a toss. My Dad, who died 3yrs ago, would've been such a great help/support and would have been giving out his very wise advice but unfortunately that has gone. Seeing my eldest daughter curled up in a ball, sobbing her eyes out, in her bedroom because the rumours about what this boy had said about her were true was devastating. I sat with her, comforted her, told her she'd be ok, finally persuaded her to talk to a counsellor at school whilst DH was in meetings with the Headteacher and yes, I guess, I didn't have enough time to spend with DD2 at the same time so, yes, I do need to find some time with her and urgently.

I agree, I CANNOT hide my irritation in the morning when struggling to get out the door. I end up shouting snapping at them - and then end up apologising half the way to school

Hence the 'handing over responsibility' to dd1 - she is 5, has been able to dress independently perfectly well for over 2yrs now, can wash her face and brush her teeth with minimal supervision... I have had to say to myself, "if we're late, we're late" - but it's preferable to having a full-on barney at 8.30am

If we're late because of her dawdling/not listening/doing it her way etc etc then she can explain that to her teacher!

(We haven't had to do that yet btw )

rempy - I don't get stressed in the mornings at all. In fact I'm quite chilled out cos I get up early and get everything done before the girls wake up. I even, when everything is running smoothly, manage to sit with a coffee whilst the kids are eating breakfast! Yes I do have to be out the door by 8am - mainly because DD1 would get so panicky about being late herself. We walk to and from school because I like them to have the fresh air and we sometimes meet up with their best friends who also walk to school so they can chat whilst walking. If DD1 is late (she's Year 5) she gets a verbal warning.

whispywhisp

Don't be too hard on yourself. I think what I have been trying to say is that starting school is hard anyway - my dd is behaving badly and we have not been through the same things as you.

Right...better go and pick the two little darlings up. Thanks for all the advice. Yes I know I need to take the rough with the smooth with the comments. Having been a Mum for over 10yrs you'd have thought I'd know what to do but sometimes even after 10yrs I'm confronted with situations where I just hold my hands up and ask 'why?' etc.

extreme punishments are a bit futile on someone that young - she will have no comprehension that you were going to spend lots of money on a party and so won't "get" the punishment. if she won't get dressed etc for school, take no notice of her apart from to ask her once to get dressed etc, warn her when there is 5 minutes left before leaving, then take her as she is.

you have my sympathy, you really do.

The situation with your dd1 sounds awful, Whispy. I suspect dd2 is simply acting out a lot of the (understandable) stress you've all been feeling as a family

I think if you can get some 1:1 time with dd2 that would be great. And some time for yourself, too

i'm sorry, i didn't read thread and didn't know about your dd1's issues.

even more sympathy. i still stand by my advice but maybe try some positive one on one attention at a non-volatile moment with dd2 and don't use that attention as a treat/withdraw it as punishment for bad behaviour, keep it totally separate.

If DD1 is the one with the time pressure (and anxiety about being late) can you arrange some days where she walks in with a friend or walking bus? Then you can concentrate on DD2 getting out the door, rather than her being dragged along in the wake.

I can agree entirely about the "everyone needs a piece of me" sentiment. Mine are much younger, 2 and 6 months, and I get to the end of the day and want to sit in the dark, in silence.

But I do think you need to rebalance your attentions now that the bullying is past - it sounds horrendous, but you are through it, you have worked efficiently as a family team and seen off the threat. But as usual you get no rest with chidren, and now DD2 is trying to make her voice heard I think.

It sounds to me as though your DD2 values the good opinion of her teacher (although I do think that what happens at home should stay at home and vice versa).

I agree with a previous poster - to break the cycle, I would try and arrange for DD1 to walk to school with friends. If DD2 is ready on time, then all well and good and you all walk together - if not, DD1 leaves on time, and if DD2 is late, she can explain why to her teacher. As long as she knows that you have to leave on time for DD1's benefit, any sanctions are going to be fairly useless.

No doubt it is attention-seeking and it is a consequence of all the problems (and associated attention) that DD1 has had, but that doesn't make it any easier to deal with.

Is there something that she really really wants which you could try reward charts for? From your posts it seems she doesn't respond to 'stick' so the only feasible option seems to be 'carrot'.

You sound very lovely and like you are having lots to cope with and doing your best, and it sounds very hard work. It will pass I am sure but just now must be horrible, and very tiring. Have been trying to think of incentives- does she like scootering (if there is such a word), could she scooter to school (fun and faster?).

I agree that sanctions are tricky here as if this concerted kicking off is done for attention, she might not care too much if it is positive or negative. Could you have very immediate rewards? I am think of things like buying some nice sparkly threading beads and for each good thing eg putting shoes on, one goes in a jar and she gets to make a necklace when she comes home. I'm just trying to think of something immediate and tangible. Does playing the fool work? Difficult if you are not in the mood I know, but if she is kicking off and you say, wear her tights on your head and prance about doing the whole 'where are those tights DD2 really needs them' routine can you distract her into stopping? Sometimes relentless borderline hysterical cheeriness gets us through bad mornings here. Maybe is you get a quiet time, sit down and talk her through the mornings see if you can get to the bottom of it?

Its difficult to offer advice as you seem to be doing all the standard things to no avail, and some of the things which might well contribute eg tiredness after school are not easy to address. Do you feel you are trapped in a cycle, maybe look at somehow changing the routine, dress her before breakfast if you usually do it before or vice versa, at the same time as introducing a new set of incentives. Is there anyone you trust enough to just come and watch you in the morning who might see things you are missing? (not sure I could do that actually!)
Good luck, hope things get better for you

hmm not all of that made sense, I hope you can work out what I meant!

Hi - yes, we've done scootering and skipping ropes to get her to school - she loves it but one fairly long stretch of where we walk is a bit busy so we have to be careful. I can't let DD1 walk on her own because it is too far and we cross a busy road to get to school which has a zebra crossing on it but imo too dangerous to allow a child to walk it on her own. For some reason a lot of drivers simply don't recognise that the black and white stripes across the road mean it is a crossing and should stop!

Anyway DD2 has had a good day at school today. Her teacher called me in and said she was absolutely fine. She has said to her if she's a good girl all weekend she will go on the shooting star on Monday.

I made sure I spent pretty much all the walk home talking to DD2. I could see she is very tired (thumb sucking etc) so she's had her tea already and is now playing den-making in her room with DD1. Shortly it'll be bath time then she can play until DH gets home which will be about half 6.

DH is taking her swimming at the weekend whilst I take DD1 to trampolining club. I'll also make sure I do some 1to1 with DD2 and play 'batman' as she calls it when in fact its 'hangman' she likes to play.

Hangman with DC with wobbly spelling - adds an extra dimension, I find !

Does DD1 by any chance have any friends whose mothers could 'call' for her? You said you sometimes walk with other people?

Yes she does. She's very lucky with the number of mates she has. She was away all last weekend staying at a friend's place which was great and DD2 had two parties to go to - one Saturday and one Sunday. DH and I went out for a meal Saturday evening and DD2 came with us - it was nice to have some time with her. We bought her a new toy and played with that on Saturday evening. So, yes, thinking about it we do try to have one to one with her. Fortunately, also, both the DDs play well together even with a 5yr gap.

Hangman - yes I love playing it and yes I do allow DD2 to win occasionally even if her spelling is a bit hit and miss!

You make sure your DD2 gets 12 hours sleep but could she need a little bit more while she's finding school so tiring? If she went to bed 15-30 mins earlier would you still have to wake her up in the morning or would she wake up naturally. My DC is always so much better in the morning when she wakes up by herself rather than me waking her. Might be worth a try even if you have to change the clocks to fool her with what time it is. Good luck.

Well we had exactly the same behaviour last night. She was excellent in the run up to bedtime but once it was time for bed she started shouting and screaming 'NO!'. She had a bath but refused to get out - I asked her 3 times to get out and she wouldn't. I offered to lift her out (she can get out herself) - again she refused. She insisted that DH lift her out but he wasn't even home from work at that point! Eventually after I walked away she got out herself. She put her PJ's on fine, with help from me but once it was time to actually get into bed she didn't want to know.

After her screaming and running around I eventually got to sit her down and we had a little chat. I asked her if she thought it was being a 'good girl' to be like this - she replied it wasn't. I asked her if she was happy she was on the cloud at school, again she wasn't. She said it made her sad. She said she wants to be a good girl all weekend because the teacher has promised she can go on the shooting star on Monday. So after spending quite a while with her last night, sat on her bed, telling her how much we love her and how much she means to us I gave her a big cuddle and said let's try and do lots of cuddles from now on and less crying and screaming. That way we are all happy.

First thing this morning I went into her whilst she was still in bed and we had another cuddle and she immediately told me she'd been a good girl staying in her bed - she'd got up, saw DH and I were still in bed so put herself back to bed so not to disturb us - I told her that was brilliant and well done.

We'll get there......I'm sure. DD1 is poorly this morning - ear infection is refusing to subside even with penicillen so have got to see to her needs now! A Mother's job is never done...eh?

Hang on in there whispywisp... hope things get better with dd2 and dd1's ear infection goes away too.

I do have sympathy with what you are going through. I have a five year old who can be the absolute perfect child when she wants to but more often than not behaves like a grumpy teenager with eyes rolling lots of sighs and shouting. We have tried ignoring the tantrums and shouting and it seems to work well ( not easy to do) but it seems that if she is not getting any attention it helps her snap out of it. I also have a struggle in the morning - I have to get both my kids ( the other is 2) up and to the childminder for 7 and I usually get stressed and snappy but having talked to my daughter she says me being snappy makes her worse so we have now got into a habit whereby she knows which days we have to be out early and all her clothes are laid out on her bed so if she gets up and dressed then she gets a star on her chart. Not an easy time and I think alot of it is a phase, ( god I hope so! )
Lizzie1