Dad - struggling with discipline

[Graciesdad]

My daughter was 3 in November, and most of the time she is extremely well behaved. However she is occassionally quite disobedient and simply will not do as I ask.

My wife deals with this in many ways, mostly distraction techniques, however I feel that at some point she needs to learn the basic lesson that she should do what we say. I'm told she is very well behaved and obedient at nursery, so why can't be the same at home? I feel we have not set the ground rules strongly enough.

My wife says I'm creating conflict by getting upset when Grace won't do as I ask, however I feel we have simply avoided the issue by refusing to enforce consequences if she won't do something we ask her too. My wife says she too young to understand, but I disagree.

This is a perfect example. This morning while getting ready for nursery she wanted to put her snow white dress on. I said no and explained that we had to leave the house soon to go nursery. She walked away, went to her bedroom with her dress and started to put her dress on. I feel this is unacceptable behaviour, my wife less so. To me it's very black and white (typical male). I asked her not to do something and she ignored me - there should be some form discipline, even if it's just a chat to explain that she has done wrong. I feel we should do this constantly until her behaviour starts to change. It might be painful in the short term, but I feel it would be beneficial in the long term.
This causes a great deal of tension between my wife and I.

Am I over-reacting?

Help

Grace's Dad

Are you picking your battles? The example you gave made me wonder why it was so important that she didn't wear her white dress to nursery. I think with situations such as the one you describe your wife is right and distraction is the best way.

Yes.

I agree with both of you [cringing liberal here]. I agree that when you say 'no', you have to stick to it (you could try using language like 'sticking to what we say' 'consistency' etc rather than 'discipline' and 'enforce' - they do sound a bit heavy if you are trying to persuade of a point of view).

HOWEVER, that means, especially with a 3-year-old, that I will do almost anything to avoid actually saying no, and will distract, tease, tangle, side-step and weave my way out of most situations. That way the issue never arises...

will try to think of examples

I use....distraction, seperation, time out.

Initially distraction if that doesn't work then physically seperating i.e. putting the dress away then if a temper tantrum starts time out. My nursery suggested 1 minute for each year (so 3 minutes for a 3 year old) and I'm really happy with their level of discipline.

Im a single parent and thier dads discipline attitude varies from mine but this doesn't appear to be an issue because they obey mummys rules at home, nurserys/ schools at nursery/ school and dads with him. Versitile little beings so long as theres individual consistency they cope. So long as who ever tackles each issue doesn't get undermined.

Theres no manual or one right way.

Will watch with interest - this sounds so like me and DH .....

In my (fairly wide) experience, the age of 3 is quite hard work as children are still too small to do much for themselves but at the same time need to grow independent and test boundaries.

If your dd is behaving perfectly at nursery, she will naturally need to relax and be a little bit less perfect at home: you could wear a 3-year-old out by insisting on perfect behaviour everywhere.

As Alice says, you have to pick your battles. She has to learn to obey you, but you don't have to force every issue. If you teach her that having a different sartorial opinion to yourself equals "doing wrong", how are you going to tackle the real biggies, such as hurting people or breaking things?

All right, you may need to get the white dress off her for practical reasons (cheerfully, calmly), but you don't have to make it into a moral issue. For a 3-year-old to challenge your authority is normal and healthy, not "wrong". (doesn't mean you have to give in)

Yes here too. If she's not a brat at nursery and you say she's mostly well behaved, then why worry. Three's an age where they try and battle, it's part of finding her place in the world and she's worse at home because it's safe and she loves you, so take it as a compliment, no matter how irritating it is. Just relax and pick your battles, make sure you win those, and enjoy Grace. She sounds feisty, opinionated and altogether fun.

No I don;t think you're over reacting. Personally in our family, there is friction when it comes to dispcipline. DH thinks I'm too soft etc. We do agree that there should be boundaries but it seems sometimes these boundaries are for different areas (eg dh thinks ds should have sat in his higchair when I thought it was perfectly acceptable that he wanted to sit at the table with us)
Can you chose a time to discuss this with your wife when both of you are calm? Ask what she thinks first and take your cues from there. Perhaps you can say something along the lines of 'I want us to work together on this one, can we agree some common ground?'
My 2 are disobedient sometimes and it drives me crazy. They seem to do it mostly in front of their grandparents and puts us in a bad light! Yesterday they were so hyper they were hoping all around the dinner table. And yes they often refuse to get dressed. Guess what I'm saying is that its normal behviour. I usually threaten to take something away if they don't do as they're told, it usually works.
How do you show your upset if Grace is naughty? And why does your wife think this causes conflict?

Have you got into doing deals yet - ie giving some power back? So say okay I can see you want to wear your dress, but you can't as it's so special and it might get dirty, but if you take it off now, we can have a story on the way to nursery - or some other treat that you know she'll like. Takes the sting off a stand off, but only works if you get it in before she's not erupted into screaching...

I think you are both right.

I think I agree with you that at some point distraction isn't enough, although I do think it should be first thing you try. However, there comes a point when a child has to understand that they have done something wrong.

I also don't think that having a chat about her behaviour will change it. She is only 3 and 3 yr olds are notoriously illogical creatures and not ones for reasoning. She will not remember from one day to the next either. Chat may not be the right word really. In this case I would say that you can't wear the snow white dress to nursery as it will get dirty and it is for dressing up (that is what you meant by snow white isn't it). Not further chat required or discussion. Children don't need complicated reasoning.

I am trying to think what I would do in your shoes which is difficult as I have 2 boys who pretty much put on whatever you hand them to wear so this example is not a good one for me. I think though, that I would use compromise. I would say that you can't wear the dress now but you can wear it when you get home.

I am not a great advocate of naughty steps especially with DS2 it took so long to get him on the naughty step that you forgot what he was there for in the end. Far better for him to threaten to take things away, such as toys or treats.

Does the nursery have any discipline techniques you could use at home? DS2's nursery used to use an egg timer to get him to do something if he refused. If he didn't behave when the egg timer had run out he used to have to sit with a teacher for 5 minutes instead of playing. It worked for him.

I think that you are being a bit unreasonable, children of 3yo do still find it difficult to obey (and it is natural for her to test her boundaries)

You have to sit down with your wife and decide on the non-negotiable behaviour, these are different for every family, but ours are eg.

• sitting down at the table together for meals

• holding hands when on a busy street

• teeth cleaned before bed

Things that you do not what to compromise on, that are set rules that are not broken.

The other things (if she wants to wear her Snow White dress to nursery, for example) are negotiable. I would have either let her wear the dress or said that she can wear it when she comes home from nursery.

You have to chose your battles.

Oh, and don't forget that Grace has to win some battles too. It is good for her self confidence if she knows that sometimes she can argue with Daddy and he will understand her POV and change his mind about something.

ooh good thought Mmelindt [takes note]

in the example you describe, when she asked to wear the dress, you could have said 'The snow white dress? I'm going to wear it' and could have run upstairs and put it on your head. then you could either have gone to the nursery with it on your head, or your wife could have been the 'parent' and told you that the dress is for dressing up, you don't want to get it dirty love, and you could have whined and moaned and taken it off and put it away, and probably your daughter would have enjoyed 'telling you off' and making you be sensible. That kind of thing.

choosyfloosy
that was something that my DH came out with recently.

Having a laugh most definitely helps

I think you have to try and meet her half way. Also, try and remember how easy it is for you to do what you like and how hard it is for her. With the dress, for example. In her mind she thought 'I'd really like to wear my snow white dress today.' But you said 'no'. She thinks 'Why not? That makes no sense.'

Children are really at our mercy because we have a plan for them, their day etc, which we carry around in our heads and often don't tell them about.

We just say 'time for nursery' or 'tea time' or 'we have to go to the shops' whereas their internal dialogue might be something like 'hmm, first I'm going to dress up, then I'm going to play schools with my dolls, then I'm going to paint.'

The conflict comes when their internal plans, over which they really have no control, differ from the things we want them to do. Then they get cross and confrontational and that's when the conflict comes. So perhaps a little advanced warning eg 'here's what we're going to do, and then you can...'

Also perhaps asking her to do the positive, not 'don't (as a random example 'please don't hit the baby' could be 'why don't we try and make the baby laugh. peek a boo..' or 'please don't throw your food ' could be "I'll count to ten and see how many peas you can eat in that time..")
Exhausting I know.

Of course, if her behaviour is still 'unasseptabul' there's always the naughty step.

(Also, my ds spent a whole year from 3-4 being Batman. I mean he literally wore nothing but Batman outfits. It was OK. We got through it...)

(That was a joke about the naughty step btw.)

Ok, I also have a child (boy) 3 in November, so I know exactly the stage of your dd.

The answer is (as has been said already) that no does absolutely mean no. If I tell my son no and he does something anyway then he sits on the (I hate this term) naughty chair for 3 minutes being completely ignored (after explaining in simple terms why it is happening "Mum said no, you did x anyway, so you will sit here" type thing). He then is allowed to come down if he apologises and gives me a hug (at which point I am all smiles and enthusiasm for something else - the punishment is over).

However you said "no" at a time when you should have said "not now". Had you said something along the lines of "That would be lovely later on, but right now we need to do this", you are avoiding the confrontation.

Pick your battles. Never say "no" when you mean "maybe" or "later on". Because when you have said no I do think that it must be obeyed. For safety's sake as much as anything. Is saying "No don't run out into the road" on a par with "No you can't wear that dress now"?

Keep no for the important things, but ensure it is always obeyed.

Ramble over.

I forgot to say she couldn't wear her dress because she has a uniform. It wasn't really about the dress, it was about wanting to play with it at a time when we were getting ready to leave the house. I did try and explain this to her and did say she could play with it later.

What upsets me (so much) is when she chooses to ignore what I ask.
I feel she is old enough to understand that this is unacceptable behaviour.

However, I am acutely aware that I just don't have the same level of patience with her as my wife (like a lot of my male freinds who have children).

Is this a common theme? Are men generally less patient or am I making excuses? If so how do other fathers manage their (quite angry) feelings in these circumstances?

I don't think men are less patient; it's about how experienced they are and how well they understand child development.

Quite frankly, if you are wasting time getting upset because a 3-year-old chooses to ignore you, then you do have a bit to learn about child development.

My dh (and my Dad, and my Granddad) would have dealt with the situation and got the uniform on; they just wouldn't have bothered with the angry feelings, because they know what 3-year-olds are like.

it's ok to get angry in an unreasonable I-am-tired-and-grumpy way with a small child; but you seem to be getting angry because she is not acting and thinking like an adult- that would be because she is three

Besides, is it really unacceptable for a child to question authority?

My dh is probably more patient than me

I think it's important that you don't take anything she says personally. She is not saying no to wind you up or to defy you, she just wants immediate gratification.

If you have exhausted all other avenues (distraction etc.) then saying no is acceptable. I also start counting when I am getting to my boiling point - this is a signifier that a punishment is on the way if I am not obeyed. E.g. ds wants to play with his toys, but we need to go. I try coaxing "Come on, we'll play with that later, we're going to go to X and do Y, won't that be fun?", if that fails then I ask a little more directly, "Come on, we're going now, come and get your coat on", followed by a more stern "Ds now is not the time to play, we are going. You have to the count of three or [give consequence]. One... two...". I count very slowly, maintaining eye contact. And the punishment is always followed through if he has not started to move before three. The second he begins to behave, I change my tone from stern to enthusiastic and light.

I think it's about setting up a structure and keeping to it.

She is not ignoring you because she is defiant, she is ignoring you because you are trying to make her do something she doesn't want to.

Toddlers are selfish and think of no one's feelings but their own. Keep this in mind and it might help you stay calm.

my dh can be a bit like you, he gets 'upset' when dd disagrees with him. i think he struggles to think how she thinks, ie get down to her level and think through what the disagreement is. he tries far to hard to get her to do what he wants while she tries very hard to get him to do what she wants.

i, on the other hand, don't believe dd should always do what i ask. i'm happy to discuss and reach a compromise. she's 2.7.

Read more on these boards and you'll see that Mothers get angry too. I think as most parents, you've a pre conceived way of thinking your child should behave. It's a shock when they start to show free will and defy us and it's hard for both mums and dads to recognise that this is normal behaviour and doesn't make your child bad in any way. Try and see her defiance as interesting and part of her development, that should help you step back. She's a normal little girl and sounds great to me.

Despite my deeply held belief that DD should do as I ask, all the time, no questions asked, I realise I am perhaps asking a little too much of her ;-)

I try and be more like my wife but it's very hard to do at times when I'm tired and stressed. Devloping more patience is not easy, but I will continue to try.

Just one more question. At the risk of greatly oversimplifying the issue,there is consensus here that three is too young for children to understand why adults say what they say, and other tactics should be utilised. When are they not too young?

Not sure if there is a father/mother divide
as I have come across opposite examples
(fathers indulging their kids, mothers being a lot more strict).

Our dd is only 2 and a half years old but we have the same battles -
she has a Cinderella dress, though!

Missus and I both deal with it the same way:
We turn it into a quick game of chase and then gently force
her into ther clothes. No big debates and no anger.