Feel like a failure as cannot get Ds (2) to sleep without laying down with him...please tell me I am not a terrible mother....have been in tears tonight...

[ohnowhatnext]

Posteda little while ago about Ds and his new habit of throwing himself out of his cot, well took peoples advice and he now has a bed but he will not sleep in it!! Have put a duvet down next to it which he sleeps on.

Have had a few HORRENDOUS nights where DS is not going to sleep until 9 or 10 at night despite myself and dp doing everything we can to 'exhaust' him in the day and also not allowing him a nap (he had pretty much dropped a daytime nap anyway). Also he has been waking so often in the night that for sanitys sakes we have been taking it in turns to bed down next to him.

Well tonight we decided to be a bit firmer and did not 'bed down' with him but every five or ten minutes one of us would go in and without interacting pop him nack on the duvet. Well that was a complete disaster as he became increasingly 'hysterical' and in culminated in him throwing himself against the furniture and he was drenched in sweat to the point where I was really worried about his wellbeing.So yet again I layed down next to him til he dropped off. Sigh.

I have since been in ntears because I just feel like I am not doing things 'right' or maybe if I was a better or more competent mother we coulod get him off to bed in a reasonable fashion. But he is only just two and obviously the technique of consistently putting him back to bed is not going to work if he is going to physically injure himself, that just doesn't sit well with me despite what I have seen on supernanny!

Am I expecting too much? What age can you begin to implement a strict routine? I should add that he nearly threw himself over the stairgate this evening he was so worked up and we dont have the room to put one up in his doorway.

Any advice, reassurance very much appreciated.

my son is now 2.9 and the only thing that stressed me out about lying with him until he fell asleep was my perception that i was doing the wrong thing.

now that i have accepted that it is the right thing for us, it is a nice relaxing part of my evening.

my baby daughter settles herself much better than ds ever did - i think it has a lot to do with personality, and if this is what ds needs to fall asleep, then i'm happy to help him.

Dh and I take turns lying down with ds (2.3). It can take a long time, from 15 min if he hasn't had a nap to an hour. When I did it every night I found it frustrating but doing it alternate evenings I find it quite relaxing. I listen to a podcast or just enjoy a bit of time to think about things that I don't get at any other time during the day. Ds is quite adorable at this time, he always says 'I love you mummy' and 'thank you for being awesome' so it really is quite pleasant. I know some people sneer at us for doing this but I don't feel like a bad mother. The only parenting decision I really regret was our aborted attempt at cc when he was 11 months.

Also, I think most 2 year olds still need some kind of comfort object to get to sleep. Lots still have dummies or bottles - ds has us. And if the alternative is screaming themselves to sleep every night like spero's dd then I think that's fine.

If you're a failure, then so am I. Frankly, I can live with myself.

It's the whole supernanny thing, not to mention her-who-shall-not-be-named-on-this-forum.

I had a friend who was all into parenting techniques and no doubt shocked and horrified when she heard of our bedtime routine. But then I was shocked and horrified when I heard that her toddler son had woken inconsolable one night and she had given him calpol to settle him though there was no suggestion he was ill or in pain. I would have taken him into bed with me. And she would have judged me on that

Looking back dd has always been clingy and difficult to settle- and there were times when I resented it. But a few years after toddlerhood she developed a chronic pain disorder. I have since had occasion to be thankful that my presence is enough to take the edge of the pain off and settle her to sleep, even now when she's nearly a teenager. That is an awful lot of dangerous painkillers we have not had to use! And she still believes that I can take the pain away...

personally I'd leave him to it .. he will tantrum himself to sleep and when he realises it isn't going to bring you back in he'll stop doing it

When DS was 2 and moved into a bed we actually held the door closed on him whilst he screeched for about 30 minutes .. it lasted 2 nights and he has slept perfectly since

It does not damage them or their self-esteem or their love of you or yours of them no matter what people on here think

Didn't do the same with DD, but she never needed it.

Oh my children also co-sleep and are allowed to come into my bed in the night whenever they like still ... so there's a dichotomy isn't there?

It was the difference between teaching them how to adjust to a change and that throwing a tantrum wasn't going to change things and comforting in the night to us. And it worked for us.

And my childre are just as loved and secure as yours

Lying with a child till it goes to sleep was always the wrong thing for us ... we felt that that gave our child despotic dictator rights which we were unwilling to accept .. But that was OUR decision for OUR children ... and you must make your own for your own .. tbh nobody else is there to judge you when you're doing it and nobody else really cares that your evening is being eaten into or your sleep disturbed.

So you do what works for you and what you can live with.

I snuggle down with my ds2 most nights too. He is 5. I love our snuggle time, and as an earlier poster said, we have found, over the years, that we get more time to ourselves that way.

Having said that, when evening time was precious, we made the rule that sleeptime had to be 7.45, so after bath and snuggly stories, the light went out, and then the only thing I did was to lie very still with him and say "It's sleep time now. Snuggle down". IME, he settled very quickly, with a snuggle on offer.

If he insisted on being bouncy, then dad came in (very much second best option for ds2) and he soon got the idea. Since 4, he has been able to go to sleep almost instantly on his own, but at 2 or 3, we would have had to do a lot of Shhh and return or whatever. We preferred the snuggle approach and it worked for us.

I stay with DS (2) until he's asleep and we used to co-sleep I used to worry so much about his sleep, feel guilty etc but then I just thought sod it and did / do whatever works for us at the time. His sleep has improved no end from what it used to be like!

PS, very occasionally, I used to fall asleep with him around 8pm too, waking briefly around 10pm to move to my room. It is wonderful. 11 hours sleep in one night puts a whole different look on life!

Reading Twiglett's post and wondering why I can feel that hers can be right and mine can be equally right.

I think the clue is in:

Twiglett on Mon 13-Oct-08 10:00:32
Lying with a child till it goes to sleep was always the wrong thing for us ... we felt that that gave our child despotic dictator rights which we were unwilling to accept ..

If you feel like this, it is wrong. You are going to resent it and your child will pick up on your resentment.

But equally I know dozens of parents who would feel that Twiglett's habit of letting them come into bed in the night would be giving them despotic dicator rights.

I was fine with both of these, as I have never had any fears that I will not be able to stand up to my children on other matters. This particular one did not feel like the thin edge of the wedge. Other things (like giving sweets in supermarkets) would have done- so I didn't do those.

It's about what works for you. But if you are going to do it, make it a treat for yourself, bring a book and a snuggly rug and a cup of coffee. (when dd has her pain attacks I still sit with her and dh brings me cups of tea )

That's the thing though cory

too often on here we allow it become black and white .. we tow a party line for some reason .. this has been a development over the last few years really .. the right and wrong of parenting with the liberal, child-centred, attachment view becoming increasingly the norm that is promoted.

It is, as we are all painfully aware, a continuum of doing what is right for your family and in the best interests of your children.

And being happy that you are grown-up enough to make that decision.

And then being able to bitch about it when it blows up in your face

You're spot on, Twiglett!

Though I think the reason the liberal child-centered approach dominates on here is because that is what people are not getting in RL. They are surrounded by contented little baby-parents, supernannies, oldfashioned HVs. They come on here to see if anyone has an alternative. MN is not the whole picture, but a counterbalance.

Certainly, I never met anyone in RL (in this country) who thought I was right to let my dcs into my bed when they'd had a nightmare. In the end I had to shut my HV up by telling her it was a cultural thing: this is what we do in my country. She couldn't really argue with that

There were actually lots of areas where I was far less liberal than my RL friends, but because of the baby gurus sleeping has become a sort of acid test of your parenting skills.

People don't write books about not buying them sweets in supermarkets or whether you make them play in the rain or not. You are judged on one aspect alone- and it's not everybody who thinks this is the most important aspect.

We had this with dd for months (felt like aeons at the time) when she was about 3. I was happy to lie with her and sleep on her bed for a while but it got to the point where I was so exhausted with it all - woken several times a night, no evenings to speak of, working full time as well and dealing with an overtired child at either end of the day. It all got too much and I ended up taking time off work with exhaustion.

What worked for us in the end was a combination of gradual withdrawal and a sticker chart. You have to do the gradual withdrawal really slowly - first week sit on his bed, the next on the floor next to his bed, the next week nearer the door, then in the doorway, then just outside the door, then in a different room upstairs and then magically you can go downstairs while they are still awake. It was a lot of faffing around but it worked for us - I was too tired and upset muself to deal with a screaming banshee every night and this kept noise and fuss to a minimum. In all honesty after the first couple of nights she was happy for me to sit quietly reading a book, as long as she knew I was there then she would lie quietly and drop off. SOmetimes she would make a bit of a fuss when I moved where I would sit, sometimes she wouldn't. You do have to hold firm a bit but it isn't as harsh as CC.

Every night that she went to bed without a fuss she would get a sticker on her chart. She was told she was allowed up if she felt poorly or needed a wee or had a bad dream or whatever so she didn't feel trapped in her room, but silly reasons for getting up were dealt with by simply taking her back to bed with no eye contact, no chatting etc. I would then sit in that week's place until she dropped off again. The night wakings stopped really quickly once we got into a routine.

Another tactic we used was - Mummy's going to the toilet/ for a shower / to get a drink but will be back - take your time (but do make sure you go back) and she would happily lie by herself.

Lots of reassurance helped too - I told dd that even though I was downstairs, I was still looking after her and that I checked on her several times a night to make sure she was OK ( minor white lie!) so she had no need to feel alone or scared.

Good luck, I hope you find something that works for you - it really is hell on earth. Sleep deprivation isn't used as a form of torture for nothing!

Co-sleeping - I must be the only MNer to have failed at that! I slept on her bed, let her sleep in mine, and we kept each other awake as we both wriggle, talk in our sleep and so forth. Poor dh . The only thing that worked for us was to give dd the confidence and security to sleep in her own room.

Just to echo what some others have said - it's only an issue if it's a problem for you. I lie with ds (nearly 3) every night and usually it doesn't take too long. If he wakes in the night he generally comes in with us, and again I don't see a problem.

I relish the snuggly time with him, particularly if we've had a testing day. I like the idea of him going to sleep feeling happy and secure.

We have a dd now too who's 12 weeks. She currently sleeps on me all evening but I'm hoping that by the time I start putting her to bed I can incorporate her bedtime routine into his.

He won't need you to stay with him while he falls asleep forever, but hopefully he'll always know that if he does need you to stay with him for any reason, you'll be there. Just knowing that will make him feel secure.

I'd say like lots of others - give into it. Twig's right in lots of ways as they are despotic dictators, but your lo sounds so genuinely stressed, that he's not manipulating in a calculating way, so surely needs a cuddle and reassurance. From memory, by roughly age three I'd escaped to reading in the doorway, then from 3.5 I'd got downstairs as he self settled happily. Go gently and you'll get there. It really doesn't last forever

Normal! and it will pass!
If it helps, ds is nearly 4 and a tricky sleeper. On a good night he will turn over and lie quietly while I stroke his head of hold his hand and gently drop off. On a more lively night we have a bit of to-ing and fro-ing, and I end up cuddling him to sleep or lying down next to him. Either way there's no tears or upset, it just takes a little longer if he needs a bit more of me.

But this weekend he had his first ever sleepover. I posted here in a fit of preciousness worrying about whether he would be able to sleep without me at bedtime, and after a lot of slapping and being told to pull myself together off he went, and hey presto he did. No problem at all. Didn't ask for me once apparently. So it won't last for ever, and it IS normall and it WILL pass. In the meantime enjoy it and don't stress about it

As kitbit says, it will pass. My children are now 11, 13 and 15 and all go to sleep on their own - what worries me now is that there will come a time when they want to bring girls back for a spot of co-sleeping, and I'm not sure how I'm going to cope with that question......

The bottom line, as far as I am concerned, is that you should do what works for you as a family.

The amount of advice that's out there, in the form of books, programmes, super nanny, friends, etc etc is a two-edged sword, in my opinion. Sometimes the advice is useful, but all too often we are left feeling inadequate as parents because we can't implement all the advice.

My personal favourite author is Libby Purves, who wrote a book called "How not to be a perfect mother" - full of humour, tips from herself and her friends of various things that worked for them, and at the core of it, the reassurance that we can be less than perfect and still be wonderful, loving mothers raising secure, confident, loving children.

Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who replied to my post!

For the last two nights we have scrapped the controlled crying type approach, having taken solace in what many of you said about doing what works for us. Dp has layed down next to ds and it has only taken 10 to 15 mins to get him off to sleep, so we can at least eat or dinner in peace and have a few hours together.

During the night he is still waking quite a lot (four times last night) and not really settling without us staying with him (fell asleep on the duvet on the last occasion) but have decided that we will start off by going with the flow and hopefully help him to feel secure, and then gently / gradually wean him off us.

Thanks again!

One thing that I think helped at night when mine were very little was that I wrapped them in a shawl after feeding them, then cuddled them until they fell asleep. This meant that when I put them back in the moses basket, they weren't woken up by the transition to a cold surface - the warm shawl insulated them.

One other idea that occurs - far too late to be of any use to me - is that perhaps you could role-play bedtime with toddlers, with them playing parent and putting either you or a doll/teddy to bed. It could help you explain the behaviour you want at bedtime and/or help you talk to them about bedtime behaviour. As I say, I haven't tried this myself, so it is only a thought.

Haven't read whole thread, but how can giving your child the security he needs at bedtime be a bad thing? Carry on - a strict routine really isn't necessary!

Because I think the interesting thing about this debate is whether or not this is what your child 'needs'. Of course, not giving a child what he needs is a bad thing. But not giving a child what he wants but which will leave you exhausted and frustrated, is not necessarily a bad thing at all.

My experience has been that my child does not 'need' extensive intervention at bedtime. Although she would happily accept it if offered. But it would drive me mad, and that's not good for either of us.

If it makes you happy and works for you and your family, do it. If it doesn't, don't. But don't feel guilty either way.

Just to pick up on the sleeping on the floor thing... My ds is now 6 1/2, and still chooses to sleep on the floor more than on his bed. My feeling is that as long as he has a bed he can sleep on if he chooses, its up to him.

As for settling. Find something that works for both of you, never mind what anyone else says. For me and ds, this is me going back in ever '5' minutes (he thinks it is 5, in fact I add 2 minues each time), despite shock from friends that he doesnt settle himself (the lure of toothpaste is too great I fear ). For you both, it may be gradual withdrawal, where you slowly increase the distance between you/dp and ds, or even bedding down with him until he is asleep, though in both cases dont give him attention if you can help it.

Alternatively, how would he be if he had some music on at bedtime? Is this an option?

Finally, it may be that by dropping an extra nap and exhausting him during the day that he is over-tired come bed time. Ds is still a nightmare if he is over-tired and those nights I often have to bed down and cuddle him off to sleep. Maybe easing off a bit during the day may help bedtime. Sounds daft but sometimes the weirdest things work.

Lastly, you are a fab mum, it will get better. hugs to you and dp both

Oh, and ignore supernanny et al, it may seem to work for everyone, but honestly I think it just feeds people fears when things dont happen like they do on the programmes.

Sorry no time to read whole thread now.

Please read "the no cry sleep solution for toddlers"

it helped me a lot

(I think the "no-cry" bit actually refers to the parents )

I don't think there's anything wrong with comforting as necessary. My babyn slept on my lap and in bed with me until he was 11 months. Because I noticed him rolling over to sleep on his own in bed I then tried putting him into our bed after nursing him to sleep on my lap at nap time and for the evening. Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't. If he's wakeful I either go and lie with him if I'm tired, or I bring him back into the living room to snuggle on my lap. I can then read or go online

If he sleeps till we go to bed then it's a bonus. It's just not an issue for us, and as he gets older and I find the days less of a strain, and get adequate sleep at night, I mind less and less mothering him at night too.

I don't expect him to sleep alone until he's about 4 (if he wants to) and I know I'll miss him when he does