10 year old can't sleep alone! Sorry - a bit long.

[CarofromWton]

I'm quite embarrassed admitting this but does anyone else have a child who still won't go to bed on their own at 10 years old? DD1 has always been very sensitive and has lots of fears - dogs/lifts/spiders etc and we have always done our best to give her some confidence etc. The upside is she is a high-achiever at school and has many friends.

All this greatly affects her (and our) life, the main example being that I have to take her upstairs to bed and sit in the anteroom outside her room (which btw she shares with her 4-year old sister) until she is fast asleep. This can take anything from half and hour to 3 hours each evening. Therefore I'm losing my evenings and getting very stressed about the situation which isn't improving (has been like this for approx 9 months).

You may think - well ok just leave the room and make her go to sleep on her own, but if I do leave, she becomes hysterical and begs me to stay like her life depends on it. This has got so bad in the past that it has woken up DD2 and totally stressed out the whole family. She also regularly wakes up during the night and comes into our room refusing to leave. Because I'm so desperate for sleep I often swap beds with her and she ends up with DH for the rest of the night!

She was referred to a child psychologist in January and so far we have only seen her once for the initial assessment - God knows how long it will be before the next one. In the meantime I'm feeling quite desperate and really worried that my DD will always be over-anxious in life.

Anyone else experienced this please? I can't help feeling this is all my fault and I've failed DD in some way. (DD2 is completely different - no problem at all so far).

Hi everyone - just an update for those who were so helpful with their advice last week.

I'm afraid there haven't been any significant improvements at bedtime this week. However, I contacted the Dr and was told the child mental health organisation would soon be in touch re: DD1's 2nd appointment (take their time, don't they?). Today I also received in the post a letter from the Psych describing the problems with DD1 and her opinion of the treatment needed, which basically states DD1 needs help to cope with her fears and learn strategies in order to relax. She also included a bundle of leaflets on relaxation techniques for me to plough through.

I purchased one of the CDs from Relax Kids, but when I played it to DD1 at bedtime she immediately put up one of her barriers and said it was making her more frightened. I shall persevere with this though, perhaps playing the CD to her before bedtime, whilst she is still downstairs with us.

Anyway, I hope the 2nd appointment comes soon. Thanks again for all your support.

xxx

Caro, why are you reluctant to let her go to bed later? If it's taking up to 3hours to settle then she's not getting to sleep until around 11:30 on a school night anyway. Why not let her stay up later and see if it relaxes her at all.

carol, i saw your posts on the other thread and this one.

My input may be irrelevant to your case but I'll stick my thoughts here just in case they are some use.

From the age of about 7 or 8 my dd was afraid of the dark, of going into the bathroom in the evening, (even when we were all around watching tv, etc), afraid of going into her bedroom if the light was not on, afraid of her cupboard being open. Terrified of getting out of the car, to open the gate for me when it was dark. She's an intelligent kid with a great sense of humour. I realised that her fear was irrational and that she HATED the feeling of the fear. It made her feel stupid, powerless and extremely stressed. I realised trying to convince her she wasn't frightened made no difference. In fact it made her more stressed. So I did the following:

I always went with her to the bathroom when she asked me, even if I felt like screaming with frustration as I was trying to cook dinner. I pretended it was no big deal. I chatted about something else while we were in there. It seemed to calm her.

I told her she would grow out of it.

I told her I understood what a pain it must be to not be comfortable going to the loo alone, but that eventually it would pass.

I found a kid's book about being afraid of things. I didn't make a big deal of the book just gave it to her with a bunch of others. I think she found it amazing that she was not alone, that she could read about another (cartoon) kid who was afraid of stuff.

I walked with her to her bedroom, to put the light on, find her books, put a story cd on.

I tried very hard to take all the pressure off her. (it also took some pressure off me too as I didn't try to fight it)

I made sure she had hobbies and activities to raise her sense of self and of power.

She's 13 now and completely different. I don't know if she would have grown out of it anyway but I do feel that not making her feel abnormal/stupid/a nuisance helped.

Why don't you just make up a campbed in her room for you and tell her whenever she wakes up frightened she can come and get you and you will sleep with her. That way you keep her in her own room. If she comes in the middle of the night keep all your frustration to yourself just say sure, no prob, I'll come to your room.

Or re-arrange your evenings a little (this might seem like forever but it will pass) let her go to bed a little later and you go earlier. Go to bed yourself on your campbed in her room. Or mumsnet in the anteroom if she'll let you. Promise her that you will sleep with her. And keep your promise. So even if she wakes she's allowed to wake you up. That way you don't even have to get out of bed yourself!! Assure her it's no problem, and that this little phase in her life is only a phase and soon she'll grow out of it. Assure her that loads of people have funny habits and grow up into normal people.

I could be wrong but and please forgive me if I'm speaking out of turn but I think you should take all the pressure off her (even giving her a relaxation tape puts some pressure on her to sort herself out). Just give her what she needs and make it easy and stress-free for yourself to do so.

What a lovely post, mumonthenet, and I agree with your approach. We have done similar and it has worked for our child,too. I completely agree with what you say with "it also took some pressure off me too as I didn't try to fight it". We found things much easier when we dropped the idea of what 'should' or 'shouldn't' be happening.

yep, juuule, that's half the battle isn't it?

hope all is well caro, will check back later.

Cant she rest on the settee in the living room then when shes sleep nd drowsy you wake her and get her upstairs and hopefully she will drop right off/?

Carol - I had a similar problem & so did a friend of mine. I finally got my DS to say what he was so "scared" of & he had the idea that I was going to leave & not come back while he was asleep! I never got to the bottom of why he thought this, but I told him he could keep some of my things by his bed to help him feel better. For a long time he slept with my make-up bag & a necklace, coz he was convinced I wouldn't leave the house without them . (He's a 19 yr old uni student now & completely normal by the way!!). My friend tried the same technique with her DD who was even more anxious than my son, & she took to sleeping with her mum's car keys! But it worked, they slept. I think some kids are just anxious by nature & there is always something with them. Hope you are getting some help by now

Thanks all - it was a nice surprise to log on this morning and find all your posts. I was working all day yesterday until 9.30 pm so I can't always respond to you straightaway.

Mumonthenet - I absolutely agree with everything in your post and this is what we strive to do for DD1. It's difficult though when you get such conflicting advice from well-meaning friends. Some say we do far too much for DD1 and 'give into' her problems and even the professionals have suggested that our mistake was 'letting her get into this bedtime habit' in the first place! I see no alternative to what we do now - I stay in the anteroom and check my work emails (or Mnet!) whilst DD1 tries to get to sleep. The most difficult nights are the ones where she just refuses to go to sleep and starts making rude and hurtful remarks to us (she has frequent teen outbursts despite her age). Most of the time I can handle the stress but I'm human and I occassionally do lose my temper. I'm not sure I should allow her to stay up really late with us, on the basis that most nights she does go to sleep at a decent hour. When she gets up in the middle of the night I don't make a fuss - I just let her into our bed and either DH or I go to the spare bed.

Apart from the bedtime problem we too live with the other fears - can't go in lifts, won't go for country walks in case a dog appears, won't go in public toilets with the door shut etc etc. I just hope none of this rubs off on DD2 (nearly 5) but she seems to be a completely different personality. I'll keep a look out for a suitable book like the one you suggested MOTN.

I feel I have to stress - I'm not complaining about MY life and the hassles this causes the whole family. My main concern is DD1's future - like any mom, I want a happy life for her and I'm scared all her anxieties will hold her back. I'm glad to hear your children seem to be ok now - it gives me hope for DD.

The other reason I'm so concerned for her is that she seems to have the same personality as my sister and it's like going back 30 years to the troubles she caused at home - she unfortunately has never found happiness, and much of that is due to her attitude in life.

Thanks all for taking the time to post. I hope to post more positive updates soon.

xxx

im ignorant i know but whats an ante-room??

A room before, or forming an entrance to, another; a waiting room.

i found it

sparkle - well, the official name for it is a dressing room but that sounds a tad poncy! It's a small room right next to my DDs' bedroom that leads onto the landing. It is wonderful, as I have set up a computer desk, laptop etc in there and I can get on with my mumsnetting work whilst I'm waiting for DD1 to go to sleep.

x-posts! You didn't need my explanation!

i want one!!! id call it a dressing room lol to everyone i know ( i live in the tiniest house with 3 strapping ds and a 6'2 ex para dh)-id decorate it in pink and have a swarkovski pc in there -all for me!!!!!!!!

I like mumonthenet's approach too.

Agree that half the battle is the stress you get from other people.

Dd has permanent pain problems and there doesn't seem to be a single health professional who doesn't think that keeping a young girl on a continuous regime of co-codamol (nasty strong stuff!) is better than cuddling her to sleep. Fortunately co-codamol doesn't work on her, so that's one temptation gone.

I've learnt to ignore.

Hi, was looking for some information on this exact same topic, my daughter is going through the same thing. She is 10 and is up and down the stairs like a yo yo, with various 'important' issues, pretty much every night for the past month I have had problems with her. She is getting to sleep around 11.30 most nights. She has started puberty (no period yet) but breasts and hair and this has come on quite suddenly. She also eats loads and can be very rude and grumpy. I am going to try Rescue Remedy with her and see how it goes...my sympathies because I know how it feels, I shouted at her tonight and told her to go away and now I feel awful! But they push you to the limit. My daughter has quite severe dyslexia and has had problems with her hearing so I'm sure that adds to her worries too.

I like mumonthenet's approach too. My DH had very bad insomnia for a couple of years. I was always trying to find relaxation CDs, herbal remedies etc which would help. In hindsight, me stressing over trying to 'fix' the problem actually made him more stressed about the issue, which made the problem worse than it originally was.

Hi I am new here,I have only just registered.
Was reading your messages in hope to find a solution for me and my little girl who is 8,just like you I have being going through the same thing only for longer than you,it's now well over a year,she woke up one time after a nightmare and that was IT she has never since gone to sleep on her own.we have tried and are sick and tired of trying,she will not go to sleep on her own.just wondered if you and your child are having a better time now.
I will not give her any type of medication to make her go to sleep I do not agree with any of that.
Is there anybody out there with any suggestions please?
I am so confused/stressed/lost with it all,what else is there for me either than sitting for hours till she falls asleep day in day out,week in week out,months,and yes,Years,because it started when she was just 7 and she is now 8 and 1 month.
Help please.

RealIy sympathise x
I wonder if hypnotherapy would be helpful? There are therapists who specialise in working with kids and it tends to get results faster than psychology. If private treatment not in budget there are also cds that are for relaxation and sleep that could make bedtime easier and quicker. It must be very frustrating for you x
Homeopathy also often magic with kids. I have just started seeing a homeopath for Dd who was taking forever to potty train and has helped within fortnight.
Good luck and hugs! X

Our daughter went through long periods of sleeping with us until she was 13 (especially but not exclusively when her dad was away working). We didn't worry about it too much and she has completely outgrown it now.

Would your daughter go to sleep on her own if she were in your bed? I agree that completely removing the pressure can be very helpful.

Tildys, have you been to the gp? I'd be pushing for a referral to cahms or similar in your situation. Basically learning to cope with stress and fear is harder for some than others, even as adults some people cope far better than others with various stresses. It sounds like your dd needs to learn some coping mechanisms and also unlearn her dependence on you to get to sleep. These things aren't easy because dd will have forgotten or blown out of proportion the original problem until now she has a, very real to her, mountain she can't climb.

Thank you I didn't know I might get somebody come back with something as this was an old thread.
Here I am at 22:00pm waiting for DD to go to sleep,I made an appointment today to see my GP but even this is not till next Thursday,I had a little chat with her this afternoon and explained we are going to see a doctor as he may have some ideas on how to help us (me and her),she was upset,she is such a sweet little girl and she is a very happy and bubbly and caring child and she understands how hard it is for me but she just can't do it.she gets too anxious,so for a long time we just stopped trying as it was all too much so I just have her in my bed till she falls asleep and then I have to carry her into her bed and it's literally braking my back doing this every night and a lot of times she wakes and then I have to start again...many nights I sleep in her bed with her but this is so uncomfortable it's killing me and then I have the school runs,work everyday and it's not just DD we have another DD she is 10 but she has no problem sleeping she's very good the whole house could come down she will not wake up,which is a good thing as they share a bedroom.we have bought a bigger house and are going through the moving process at the moment an she keeps saying she will go to sleep on her own when we get the new house as she will have her own bedroom,and she is excited about that,but if she can't do it now and she's got her sister right there how is she ever gonna do it then?i think she just says it to cheer me up.She also suffers from night terrors but that is mainly if she is not well,so not very often,thank God...
Thank you

I used to be a poor sleeper myself - my dad worked nights and I would either sleep with my mum, or sleep with both my sisters in the same bed, so I think I was around 9 years old the first time I had to sleep on my own.

For me, sleepovers were a big nono, even staying with a close family member, I would cry until my mum would pick me up. From age 9 ish I would go to bed on my own, lie on my back (with a night light on) and my eyes would go from the window to the door, back to the window, back to the door. Every noise would send my heart running, even though our house was a small mobile home and I could my parents next door. I had loads of nightmare, many of which I still remember aged 43. In the end, my dear mum made a bed for me on the floor of their bedroom and I would go there if I'd wake up at night. I would wee in my bed instead of going to the loo as I was so scared.

Would it help at all if you would stay next to her bed for a few extra minutes, say 15 minutes, then come back every five minutes to check up on her? Or put a baby monitor in her bedroom and she can call you if she gets scared? You might want to talk to her about writing down her own routine - I used to check every cupboard and under the bed every night to check there was nobody there.

By the way, I am now a grown up without any major anxiety!

I had extreme anxiety about the dark and sleeping alone as a child and teenager.

My parents were pretty old school about dealing with it and I remember being absolutely terrified & feeling like I was hardly getting any sleep. Parents went down the route of saying there's nothing to be scared of, occasionally indulging me by checking under the bed etc and basically insisting that I stay in my own bed, to the point of me being almost as scared of the consequences of telling them I was scared as being scared of the dark/sleeping alone.

With my own children, I see the same fears in my oldest, crippling fear, nightmares etc.
What we've done is address the various fears & ask what he's scared of. Acknowledge that these are his feelings and then give some rational feedback about that particular fear. We end with saying when ever you feel this way, remember what we spoke about (the rational feedback).
Also, when he's having bad / scary thoughts we've taught him to use visualization about something that makes him happy and over the years we've encouraged him to expand this into quite a long happy story/visualization so that it often helps to calm him down and he'll fall asleep.

Despite all of this, there are nights he will not let me leave his bed before he falls asleep and quite frequently comes to my bed in the middle of the night. He's 9 and we've only just got to the stage where I can walk him back to his own bed without protests and not have to stay there with him. If he aya he's scared I reassure him, tell him I'm around & can hear him if he calls me and to think of what we call "something that makes you happy".

Try to give her some coping skills if she is genuinely scared and not just learned that she can get your attention this way.

I still stay in my three year old dd's room while she dozes off and she's regularly in my bed of a night, so I can't talk, but tbh she was three months prem and had to spend her first 81 nights in a hospital without me while I looked after her 2yo brother so I'm in no rush to change this yet. But this could be me in a few years :)
In terms of ways to overcome your dds sleep issue psychologists are going to use behavioural or cognitive techniques - both of which have at their core challenging her dysfunctional thoughts about sleeping and exposing her to her feared situation (probably via a hierarchy so starting small and building up). By going along with her fears you add credence to her anxiety that there is something dangerous about falling asleep - so mum has to keep watch, and by preventing her from facing her fear in small steps she has no chance to relearn that her phobia is irrational, so again you're reinforcing it. Evidence wise the softly softly approach is the least effective and most counterproductive way to overcome an anxiety. Anxieties need to be gently but continuously challenged so the child can learn they are false and bear no relation to reality. Poor sleeping children may eventually learn to sleep independently, but by following the constraints of her anxieties to a tee it will take far longer and if they do eventually sleep they'll do so despite not because of the fact that you were always there.