Is it ever a good idea to 'give in' to your child, or is it a slippery slope that sends the wrong message?

[Earlybird]

We've all heard of 'pester power' and how giving in to a child's demands/requests can be fatal to one's parental credibility/authority.

Do you ever give in to your child to defuse an escalating situation or just for an easy life? Are there other reasons/situations where it is OK? Specific examples would be helpful.

Would also like to hear from parents of primary/secondary school children (not just toddlers).

yes just because they're children doesn't mean they can only pseter and tantrum - if they can discuss the issue reasonably they may well get a different answer; as in www's example earlier about negotiations re; the meal they would have.

i totally agree that as www says, if you back down as a result of 'reason and discussion' then you are teaching them much much more than if you always, no matter what, stick to your original position.

Agree with frogs, www et al.Although mine are only 4.5 & 2.5.

I 'give in' if:

• I have only said no once (usually in a lazy/not thinking way - ie because no is the easier answer for me)
• I am asked nicely & politely
• it is about something where they feel strongly, & I don't

In fact, I had an interesting conversation with ds a couple of days ago. We were reading a book about a mother 'being firm' & I was explaining what this meant. Foolishly, I asked ds if I was firm. He thought for a minute and said 'No'. My heart sank a little at thoughts of supernanny style inconsistancy. Then he added "If I ask nicely and don't whine and actually I have a good idea, you change your mind. Usually" On reflection, I'm not sure I could have asked for a better answer.

I think there's lots of different recipes for this, and what works for you depends on the matrix of combinations for your given ingredients - ingredients being your child's personality, relative obstinacy of each side, your own range of being-able-to-think-of-lateral-approaches-on-the-spot, your own threshold of tolerance for whinge ... and so on.

I am basically in the (said quite cheerily) "I said no, didn't I? And how many million times in your life have I said yes after I've said no, hey? Shall we do something else?" camp. It generally is fine - BUT I do think I have fundamentally non-pestery children. I think the issue has something in common with the fussy-eater debate - some just are more OK than others to go with the flow of No Chocolate For Breakfast Buster, Don't Make Me Laugh.

I had an object lesson, though, in this on Friday - took dd (usually the most adaptable & positively compliant of kids) to the dentist, & she thought the x-ray film "felt weird" in her mouth, so had a fret about it. The x-rayers & dentist tried to rationalise & negotiate with her about it, using all the good arguments for why she should have it done - basically treating her with lovely by-the-book respect. The consequence was that dd (who is also jolly articulate) countered every single rational argument with an equal and opposite rebuttal - which reached the absurdity of stand-up argument over just at what precise number of months before the age of 20 she would definitely have the x-rays done.

I would not have let that happen - but then I know her, and I know the recipe.

like others I am happy to change my mind about certain things if I have no real reason to persist other than 'because I said so' type of rationale. I will happily accommodate most requests from my DTDs(4.7) and they are pretty articulate in their reasoning! There are other things that are non negotiable and they know this e.g. toilet before a long car journey and I never give in to tantrums, which DT2 has been performing daily for the past 3 weeks, having not had one for months (this I put down to change in routine, end of ft nursery, dh and I on school hols, starting reception in sept) but mostly I would try to see things from their pov, such as the OP incident, where I might have said I'd help out to start with then back off once settled to it.

What is pester power though?

Has anyone actually defined it? Is it nagging? Or is it reasoning? And at what point does reasoning become nagging (pretty early on in my six year old DD's case...)

Hmm - some very thought provoking answers here. I think there is the issue of parental authority/control, (and how heavily - or if - it should be enforced) vs letting a child have a voice/opinion but still having/setting limits - ie, what is 'too far'? (and when does being the 'understanding parent' set the stage for a constant battle of the wills). I definitely think we should treat our children with respect, but should we treat them (and allow them to think) they are our equals?

Frogs - your story is very poignant. Our children grow up so fast, and maybe we expect too much from them too soon. Even though they're out of nappies or can get themselves dressed in the mornings, they still crave a tender touch or physical closeness that shows intimacy and connectedness. Of course, we can/do take care of their physical needs, but addressing their emotional needs is every bit as important (though not nearly so clearcut).

Bink - I'm filled with admiration for your dd's logic and negotiating skills when faced with an uncomfortable/unfamiliar situation. But, this sort of incident is exactly the sort of dilemma I face. After your dd was reassured and treated with respect, but to no avail, wasn't it impossibly hard? Wasn't there a part of you that (patience and tolerance exhausted) wanted to say 'now look here, you're being silly', or 'they've explained it to you in great detail, and you need to let them do their job now'. I struggle with this sort of thing all the time.

Dd is a very strong-willed child. I have historically given her a great deal of input/choice (sometimes I wonder if she has had too much input). But, there are times when I don't wish to be negotiated with endlessly. I want her to express herself, and know her needs/desires/preferences in any given situation (and she knows she'll be listened to), but another part of me sees it as a constant questioning of parental authority possibly tipping into being disrespectful (could be my own issue projected here as I had very dictatorial parents who never tolerated any backchat and didn't consider a child their 'equal'). Or at the very least, am I giving her a power she shouldn't have as a 7 year old?

Just writing this, it occurs to me that perhaps many of our battles are centered around control - usually me asking/telling her to do/try something, and her refusing. Cue cajole, reason, and eventually frustration and anger from me. She digs her heels in, and we go 'round and 'round.

I'm normally quite hardine about not bringing a child out of their room once they've been put to bed, but tonight we'd got back from holiday and DD (3) was starting to get hysterical about being put to bed. DH tried, I tried, our sons tried... the screaming continued.

I brought her to the living room for a change of scene and a chat, then she went peacefully to sleep...

Sometimes, being a bit flexible is a good idea for everyone.

Generally agree with ideas: think before you say no (does it matter?); consider if asked nicely or given reasons.

Dd is very persistent. We put a biscuit tin on the counter (dh loves biscuits) in this new house 2 months ago and EVERY morning since she has begged for biscuits for breakfast and everyday I say no, biscuits are not breakfast food.

Frogs - I have similar feelings about doing things for dd. It seems that part of wanting me to do things for her (mainly wrt food and dressing) is like a nursing substitute and I don't want her to feel that I won't care for her in that way (probably massively projecting here ). Consequently we are a bit behind on self-sufficiency in these areas. We are making progress now though by taking turns - and I tell her that we need to take turns because she must be able to do these things for herself when mummy isn't there. I have found she is gradually getting used to it and increasingly forgets my turns. But I can't bring myself to just refuse when I feel that what she is really asking for is intimacy.

That is really interesting, that intimacy thing. We're constantly told that children need to be as independent and self-sufficient as soon as possible and I remember getting my DS to do things for himself as soon as he was physically able to, but I now know that he wasn't emotionally able to, IYSWIM, so that was the wrong thing for him. None of the parenting messages I received was about treating him as an individual, it was all couched in terms of him being independent and able to do things for himself as wholly unequivocally good for his self-esteem and necessary. Which in my DD's case was true, but not in his.

Actually, I think it is partly to do with how the pestering is done. If my kids whine, get stroppy, or sulk about a 'no' then there will be no chance of me changing my mind. If, on the other hand, they're reasoned and polite about it, I might well say, "actually, that's fair enough. OK, then" But then, they're now 10 and 12. Not sure how that worked when they were toddlers, except we've somehow evolved to this point. Either they're just biddable, compliant people, or I'm supermum. I know what blueshoes thinks!

Oh EB yes, I was very very cross with dd - but part of it was crossness with myself - ie, frustration at seeing how the issue had been allowed to escalate instead of managed the way I'd do it: I would have headed it off before she reached that no-going-back heel-digging moment.

But of course to do that you have to know the child well enough to spot (ahead of time) when heel-digging is about to kick in - so I wasn't cross with the dentist.

I think, with girls like ours, the skill we need as parents (and absolutely we'll need it as mothers of teenage barrack-room lawyers ... eek) is an especially big repertoire of different possible approaches to conflict - obviously immediate head-to-head is rarely going to work, so we have to develop lateral alternatives - maybe jokes, maybe the chant that dh & I have (which is "We Don't Need to Decide Now" & gives us both precious cooling-off time), maybe sitting down for a talk about something else entirely, maybe practising horse-trading negotiation (OK I do this but that means I get to ...). So when heel-digging looks like looming, you can sidestep it in a sleight of hand way. That ability to choose different management approaches is our advantage (as adults) over children - I think.

Has Cod recommended the How To Talk So Kids Will Listen book yet? Haven't read it myself but I get an idea it might be useful for the arsenal of strategies [technically mixed metaphor alert].

Oh - and just an anecdote: dd when she was 5 and in reception had a newly-qualified, rather open-natured young male teacher, and I recall him saying about dd's taking-control assertiveness "sometimes I feel I'm having a set-to with my own sister".

What he was saying was (rather sweetly) a combination of (i) this child is a bit beyond my teaching capabilities as yet; and (ii) you know, it would be to her long-term advantage to figure out when & where she should choose not to argue.

I agree with frogs. If I say 'No' then I stick to it, giving in to tantrums or nagging is a short term solution but causes no end of problems in the long term. I will however re assess if they come up with reasoned arguments that make me see another side-but only if given calmly in a way that isn't nagging.

Yes even with DS who has behavoural issues both me and OH will change our minds or our decisions, tbh given DS manic nature there have been times when know we've given in to pester power but I'm really not proud of that and try incredibly hard not to do it.

My general rule is that if DS asks in a reasonable manner (as much as his language skills and age will allow - he's 3) and its not a big deal then yes I will let him influence what we are doing.

A big thing at the moment is him asking for "2 more minutes" now I knwo that I often say "hang on a minute, or in five minutes" when he asks me to do something so I'm happy to give him 2 minutes before doing something as long as he justs asks like that and doesn't whinge or temper tantrum. I mean isn't that rewarding clear communication? and even if we are in a bit of a rush 120 seconds is usually acceptable.

I also allow "one more" requests for things like goes on the swings and occasionally "dinner in there (meaning the living room).

However what I also do is make sure when I say 'time to go' or similar that I'm allowing for the "2 more minutes" or "one more".

There are some rules that are set in stone; no hitting etc - you apologise when you have hurt someone - no icecream for breakfast - limit on chocolate/sweets in a day - sharing - not deliberatly breaking things......

I don't really believe in "pester power", actually, thinking about it.

"pester power" is, IMO, a word for what happens when parent says resists something, for good reasons or bad, but does not manage either to persuade child of their point of view, or to suggest something more attractive to the child which is also acceptable to them. So child goes on asking, because as far as child is concerned, adult is mistaken.

If child is asking for something you don't want them to have/do, then I think you should either help them find something better to do, or persuade them of the un-attractiveness of their chosen course, or find a way of reconciling yourself with their first choice, perhaps by altering it slightly. E.G., child wants to play in puddle. Mum says "no, you'll ruin your new shoes". Child doesn't actually care about the newness of the shoes, they are wanting to jump in the puddle, dammit. So Mum either offers something more fun (shall we climb that tree over there?) or thinks of a way to make the puddle acceptable (take shoes and socks off and roll trousers up? Parents of Persistent Puddlers might find it useful to take a swimsuit and microtowel along on expeditions so that child can really wallow).

It's not so much a question of power or authority. It's a question of how we help our children explore the world around them - helping them to build their skills at negotiating and persuading and being flexible.

runs for the hills

And P.S. the underpinning behind my response is my belief that parents are fallible, and that sometimes our children are right, and our "nos" are wrong.

With some things, like jumping in puddles, it is easy to give a fun alternative but there are times when you just have to say 'No'. Buying sweets is a good example, if they are used to you saying 'no' from the start then they don't expect it.
It can be difficult, for example I don't believe in TVs in bedrooms- there is no 'fun' alternative!
If you start when they are little it is much easier when they get to teenage years!

Acinonyx - why don't you move the biccie tin?

Reading your post made me realise something:
DH loves biscuits and the biscuit tin used to be in the same cupboard as the cereal so we had the same problem.
I rearranged the cupboards so that DS could reach all the breakfast things. As a result the biccie tin went up higher and it has been out of sight out of mind (as far as mornings are concerned anyway!)

We were given the tin as a housewarming present - the biscuits used to be in a cupboard which worked much better. There's just nowhere to put it - it's too big. I think it may have an accident soon...

There are so many different ways of dealing with these incidents. I find the trickiest and most unhappy situations always seem to 'sneak up' on me. Perhaps a large part of 'successful navigating' is thinking of various strategies in advance (as Bink sensibly advises) rather than being caught out.

I just had a phone conversation that exhibits an angle of this issue quite vividly: An adult friend and I have wanted to spend time together, and agreed that going swimming with our dds would be a nice way of doing that - they'd swim and play, while we supervised/chatted. We had agreed a late afternoon time to be followed by a picnic supper, and all seemed to be in place for a low key and enjoyable time.

The friend has just called to cancel as when she asked her dd about the proposal, the dd declined saying she would be too tired (her dd is 9, and currently doing a morning drama class). Part of me thinks 'good for the dd in realising her limits, and being able to articulate that', but part of me is disappointed that I'm not going to have time with my friend because a 9 year old has scuppered our plans! Should a 9 year old have that sort of power? What would have happened if the 9 year old had simply been told of the plan, rather than being asked?

I would tell a 9 year old the plan!

If she was difficult I would point out that she is doing something that she liked in the morning so that it would be my turn in the afternoon.

I agree Abbey - and swimming followed by a picnic is not exactly a hardship!

But this is an example, I think, of giving a child too much power. And imo, this sort of power/treatment sets the stage for a child who will probably have difficulty accepting direction (especially if there are instances where they have no input).

If it was something that she really wanted to do she wouldn't have been too tired!

Hmm yes, in that situation I'd tell the child this is what we're doing.

Sometimes you have to go along with the group dynamic. The sheer dullness of golf springs to mind, but if most of the members of the group want to play it, you go along iwth them if you're part of that group.