I know you can't help, it's just an exhausted sob into the ether.

[ThatBigGermanPrison]

Ds1 is 5, and he kept me awake until midnight last night, moaning, complaining, wandering around, fiddling, demanding to sleep in my bed, blah blah blah

Ds2, who slept solidly all night, got up at 5.45.

This is just an extreme version of a pattern that is getting worse and worse and worse. Ds2 has always been an early riser, ds1 has always been hard to settle (sibnce ds2 was born) because I can't actually shut him in his room - he screams and wakes ds2 up.

Does anyone have a clue how I can synchronise their sleep patterns?

Cloditz - how is it going now? Is he going off better?

not really .... he was shouting until 10 last night - this despite me dragging him protesting from his bed waking him up with ds2 at 6.30

Argh, sorry to hear that ... god I wish I had some good advice but I don't ... except persevere

my ds has to have piriton quite a lot in the summer monthes due to heat rash/hives/ezcema etc - the first few times he had it he was asleep in minutes - he's usually a good half hour wanting to talk or be tucked in etc etc - he's just had the pox so was having it then too again asleep in minutes. Maybe it is worth a try just to break the cycle?

Hi everyone

I haven't been on Mumsnet for ages, but have spent some time flicking through the threads this evening.

My boys are now 7 and 4 and apart from bad patches around illness, -touch wood- they both sleep pretty well now.

My older son was never a great sleeper but at approx age 5 it got really bad with constipation / cystitis - like repeated trips to the loo, crying etc. It got to the point where I went to the doctor and requested sedatives as part of the treatment... I didn't get any!

I found the best thing was to buy a pack of glitter pens, show them to my child, leave them on prominent display, and say he got one for every night that he didn't wake me up before 7am.
After 4 nights of disappointment and crying (on his part) and exhaustion (on mine), he realised he absolutely wasn't going to get a glitter pen unless he followed the rules. 5th night.. it worked - bliss!

I kept the glitter pens going for about a month (a very worthwhile investment)... and it established a new cycle.

I had to re-instate them once about a year later after a period of illness which disrupted all the sleep.

I don't have any tips on early risers I'm afraid. In "Toddler Taming" there's a line saying that the author has never really conquered this problem. It does seem to resolve after 3-4 months in my experience. But if you can get your older son to sleep, maybe that will ease things with your younger child??

Good luck!!! It's so hard to think straight when you're tired I know.

All the best.

How's it going ThatBigGermanPrison? I can finally report that we have a breakthrough this end. The new tack is that he gets a long story whilst he's lying down in bed and once it's done I leave and promise to check on him every 10 mins. The intervals get bigger and he seems to actually go to sleep about 9pm most nights. Have also been trying to be really positive when I go in and praise him for everything under the sun. Probably won't last, but great to have a break from the screaming!