Teaching a baby manners?

[CallSignCharlie]

Picked up my 16 month old ds (an only child)from nursery today. One of the carers told my that my ds is turning into a bit of a handful as he always has to be first to do everything. He'll push other kids (including older ones)out of the way to be first ourside to play or first to be fed. Some of them end up tearful as a consequence.

If he's kept waiting (which they are doing deliberately to try and teach him to be patient) he starts crying in protest.

I know he is a very active boy, into everything, is very phsysical, and loves his grub too.

My opinon is he's just really keen to do stuff and he's too young to be taught any kind of manners. We can't even get him to say "mummy" or "daddy" yet, so i'm not convinced there's much that can be done to teach him the importance of being patient yet. I'm more than happy for nursery to try, but I'm not sure if there's anything we can do at home?

at 16 months, he is more than capable of learning to wait, take turns, say please/thank you (or at least make some kind of noise/gesture).

Yes, he is keen to do stuff, but IMO he is also old enough to learn that sometimes, other people are in front of you and you need to wait.

Pretty much since DD turned one we have said, "Yes, Mummy/Daddy is coming to help you, but I just need to ... first". DD knows that we are coming and doesn't panic. Obviously, if she really needs us we are there in a shot.

DD is now almost two and knows that she has to say 'please' and 'thank you' and that she needs to wait until everyone has finished eating before she's allowed to get down from the table. She doesn't always like it, but she knows.

One thing that helped DD deal with frustration at not speaking was using sign language. She can now say milk, but until then she used to do the sign (she rarely does that sign now she knows the word).

Not sure if any of this will help, but if you are happy for the nursery to try then I really think you should mirror that behaviour at home, otherwise he is going to get very confused.

Edam, spot on.

You can teach and expect these things but you have to remember they are still children. You also have to think about what you are trying to teach long-term (eg children who say 'sorry' while they ae doing something naughty because all they have learnt is the word connected with something naughty).

I really think that at 16 months your son is too young to understand the concept of sharing and waiting turns. The livelier children are the most challenging, but they should challenge the nursery to think about how best to promote the behaviour that they want and how many staff they need to do it. I think that the carer at the nursery has unreal expectations of behaviour and this is the real concern.

Your son sounds totally normal and if you continue to model positive behaviour, he'll get there because he wants to please and not because he's being forced into unreal behaviour.

I think the 'issues' belong to the carer and it might be worth speaking to the nursery manager to find out if it is a place you can work with, or whether they all share these daft notions...any child development book should give them adequate guidance to kids of this age! Sorry about the rant, but I feel very strongly about this and given some of the attitudes expressed wanted to offer a little support...(although you sound as if you're pretty clear about your own values and expectations).

it is a progression though .. you start at the earliest possible stage modelling behaviour, reinforcing good behaviour, showing them how to behave in terms of taking turns and empathy fully in the knowledge that the behaviour they are exhibiting is NATURAL and NORMAL for children of this age but that they need to be taught otherwise

a parent who believes their child is too young to be taught is being a little naive really ... is there a magic age when the teaching starts? if there is what do you consider it to be .. and won't it shock a toddler, pre-schooler, child that suddenly behaviour that was accepted is not

if your issue is with this carer being overly harsh then of course you should act ... I read the posts as the way I would deal with any child .. give them something and one says "thank you", gently showing them how turn taking is fun, waiting and letting others go first etc etc

I would teach child to wait but wouldn't necessarily expect him to 'get it' yet!

at the amount of people who think its acceptable for OPs ds to push other children over to get what he wants!!!

16mo is not too young to be teaching him this is wrong - and i think CallSignCharlie should be thankful they are addressing this and consulting with you.

All children need to learn how to share/take turns and as he is an only child I know that can be harder to do at home, so he needs to learn when with other children. I have seen too many parents leap to their dcs defence on every little matter that nurserys/schools soon dread seeing them!

Your ds sounds lovely and full of energy but it will be kinder to him to get him to learn to share now (too many to's???).

Good luck Callsigncharlie, got to go- kids want Mr Men website !

CalSignCharlie - the thing is, no matter what the two schools of thought may be among Mumsnetters, no nursery nurse or anyone who knows anything about child development would expect good manners, turn taking, sharing, 'good behaviour' etc from a 16 mth old. It's preposterous. I don't think you should be angry, but I think you should ask the nursery some questions about this.

It certainly is not preposterous to expect some degree of social skills from a 16 month old! OK, they won't be perfect or get it every time but that does not make 'bad behaviour' acceptable and does not mean that you should just say 'o thats just how kids are' and let them run riot.

The OP mentions pushing and making other children cry. I wouldn't accept that between my own children at home and they would be told that behaviour was wrong and asked to apologise (at whatever level they're capable of...cuddles or a kiss or speaking out loud), with love and encouragement of course and not angry telling off

I do feel that there is a point at which if a child simply isn't ready to socialise within a nursery setting their presence should be reconsidered. If they're being disruptive to the group and are upsetting other children, tbh why should they suffer! It definitely is NOT the responsibility of the nursery/carer to deal with bad behaviour. At the very least it is JOINT responsibility with ULTIMATE responsiblity lying with the parent.

Boisterous children can be the life and soul of a nursery, drawing the quieter children out of the themselves and bringing a huge amount to the group as well as gaining themselves in developing the empathic and social skills. When that boisterousness crosses the line and begins upsetting other children there needs to be some kind of intervention. It is simply NOT acceptable to say 'thats just how kids are'

Have to agree with MrsMattie-it doesn't matter what your personal views are, it's about child development. Obviously children get things at different ages and stages, but in general terms 16 months is way too young for what is being suggested. I mean, you wouldn't try and force a 6 month old to walk or use a potty, so why expect particular types of social behaviour from children who are developmentally unable?

Of course this doesn't mean that you don't intervene or allow harm to come to other children, it's just the degree of responsibility for ensuring all the children are ok falls on the adults and it is their responsibility to ensure this-that's what they're paid to do, use their skills to manage group care.

By the way, I do think that raising children has to be shared between carers and consistency and communication are essential, but the behaviour being described here is very ordinary and should be manageable by the nursery and they should see it as within their sphere of responsibility.

Yes, it is preposterous to expect anything approaching 'manners' in a 16 mth old!

Of course you should be aiming for good social behaviour and always guiding children in that direction - ie. not letting them simply 'get away' with hitting other children, showing them the right way to behave, praising positive behaviour and showing that their are consequences to antisocial behaviour etc.

But to expect any type of controlled social behaviour from a 16 mth old is absolutely ludicrous and goes against every piece of writing or research on child development I have ever read. Anyone qualified to even the most basic level in childcare must know that.

there not 'their', sorry..

it is taught behaviour, not instinctive, yes, agree.

however it is never too young to be taught and by 16 months i would be expecting the taught behaviour to be coming through

Jeez. A lot of expectations here!

Go with what you think@the OP, but please, please don't think there is anything remotely wrong with a 16 mth old who 'refuses to behave'.

I'm definitely with Twig on this -

"a parent who believes their child is too young to be taught is being a little naive really ... is there a magic age when the teaching starts? if there is what do you consider it to be .. and won't it shock a toddler, pre-schooler, child that suddenly behaviour that was accepted is not "

There isn't a magic age, no, but as a child develops there are different ages and stages when they are much more likely to 'get' certain things. What I'm saying isn't revolutionary.

I agree MrsM, but I don't see the point in letting DD play with toys at the dinner table to keep her quiet, just to turn round when she is three or four and say, "actually, you can't play with toys at the table". Talk about mixed messages.

seems to me that a lot of posters haven't dealt with a really boisterous toddler. i am constantly modelling desirable behaviour, reprimanding my child when he pushes/shoves. I am mortified when he hurts another child, but he is still not 'getting' it.

i would love to have a compliant child who would listen to me and empathise with other children, but he is not capable of this at his stage of development. he is not inherently evil, just different from other children and no amount of asking him to wait/be patient is going to change the fact that he is not ready for 'manners'.

I think it is admirable that people are trying to teach their children manners. i certainly don't condone children getting hurt, but as far as the argument about children understanding the virtues of patience and good manners goes - each one is different. don't be so swift to prescribe behaviour to other people's children - they might not conform, and that is fine if they are not developmentally ready.

But I'm not saying you shouldn't attempt to guide your child's behaviour.

Going back to the OP: 'If he's kept waiting (which they are doing deliberately to try and teach him to be patient) he starts crying in protest.' I think this is absolutely ridiculous and the child will learn nothing from it. Distraction and reinforcement of positive behaviour at this age will achieve loads more in my opinion.

16 months is too young to expect good manners from a child. Some quiet, compliant children with early developing social skills (more commonly, but not exclusively girls) may be further down the path than others but to expect it is, indeed, preposterous.

It's not too young to start gently teaching the behaviour, of course not. But the child who isn't getting it yet needs help to achieve the behaviour, not to be deliberately kept at the back of the queue to "teach him a lesson." Complaining to a parent of a 16 month old that their child won't share toys is, IMO akin to complaining to a 6 month old's parents that the child cries or wets her nappy.

It sounds like the OP feels like she is being blamed for her DS's behaviour, when if that is true it is a ridiculous position for the nursery to take. She needs to discuss with them exactly what they expect of her DS. If their expectations are too high, it's time to talk and ultimately reconsider the childcare.

I wonder if the OP's DS is the youngest in a room and the nursery staff need reminding of this fact?

i totally agree - would you teach potty training by leaving a child in a dirty nappy, or by encouraging them gently to use the potty.

that is analogous to forcing the child to wait until he cries to teach him to take turns.

it does seem to me that girls are more receptive to this time of thing - my boy simply wouldn't learn like this and would probably become worse.

Totally agree with mrsgboring

I think the problem is also the otehr children.

If one 16mo is waiting patiently (and it can happen) and the OPs DS pushes in front and doesn't have to wait because he cries then what does the first child think?

I remember going to Socatots once and being really angry because the leader had told everyone to wait against the wall and he would call them. DS was the only one waiting (17mo at the time) like he was told and went last because everyone else shouted out and ran over to take part in the task. I wasn't cross with the children because it's normal behaviour but I wondered what DS learnt from that?

There's a difference betweem not accepting certin behaviour and not expecting it. I wouldn't expect any toddler to share, wait patiently etc., it's not in their nature but I wouldn't accept them doing it.

However, I think the OP should be careful that the nursery don't label her DS. He is being a normal and boisterous toddler and if they start to view him as a problem then that would make me concerned IYSWIM