Does 'separation anxiety' crying do damage?

[Dragthing]

We're lucky enough to be going skiing soon and childcare is provided in the chalet. However between booking and now, DD (8 months) has become v clingy and cries if I'm out of sight, ramping up to furious screams if I am away from her for more than a couple of minutes. She's OK with DH but not with anyone else. We're resigning ourselves to taking it in turns to babysit while the other skis, but friends are encouraging us to leave her in the chalet saying she'll be OK after the first outburst, as the carer distracts her. I know she'll cry a lot - she ends up really sobbing like her heart is breaking - and it breaks mine! Does this level of distress do her harm???

Am going to have to face this in June when I go back to work, but not sure I can put her thru the upset just so me and DH can have fun on the slopes...

I'd be really wary of someone describing an eight month old baby as having 'got the upper hand', frankly. Also, I really don't understand how denying a child the comfort of a parent when that is what they want and need is likely to make him or her any more secure. But I hope it all works out for you. And I also hope everyone has a lovely weekend!

I was thinking the same thing, lucicle.

Oh good, glad it's not just me!

Also, I meant to address this: 'in frightening surroundings without the parents being there'

I think for an eight month old, an unfamiliar place with an unfamiliar caregiver (eg on holiday with a stranger looking after them) would absolutely qualify as 'in frightening surroundings without the parents being there'.

I think you will have to judge the situation when you get there and know what the childcare is like. Until this year we have been skiing and surfing and shared childcare - one does activity in morning, one in afternoon. Its not as fun as doing stuff together, but things change when you have children, and I'd still rather do this than not surf/ski at all.

We have just come back from a holiday where childcare was provided. The problem with childcare on holiday is that you don't really have a settling in period and you can't check it out beforehand. It doesn't make sense to lower your standards just because you are on holiday. In the end, all the staff were very good and DD (15 months) and DS (4) did do a few sessions, but we went fully prepared not to use it.

child psycologist who talks about an 8-mth old having the upper hand? She does sound from another era, sorry, Dragthing.

I agree lucicle, strange people in strange place = frightening to 8 m old.

As for the controlled crying thing whilst child awake? Ye Gods, why oh why would you put a child through this? If you want to see them cry boody pinch them and be done with it (note, not a suggestion).

Also fwiw, 'as a mother' my DD did not ever cry for 'no reason' but because she was tired, hungry, thirsty, bored, wet, cold, hurt, cross and a multitude of other emotions but never just to make a noise (although, that would actually be a reason wouldn't it?)

dragthing, your friend is talking horseshit, sorry.
an eight month old "getting the upper hand"
the humane way to deal with separation anxiety is with gentleness, kindness, patience and understanding.
anxiety goes away if we offer reassurance.
babies are not dogs to be trained.
babies are human beings, just like you.
if you were anxious about your dh being away, what would feel better?
if he offered you reassurance, love and care?
or if he just left you to cry, to teach you a lesson?

IIRC 8 months is the stage for attachment issues, more than other ages iyswim. I tould seem a bit like bad timing to go away exactly when she is at her most vulnerable in terms of separation anxiety.

Could you perhaps stay with her this time, and next time you go she will probably be in a much better place as far as letting you out of her sight goes.

It is that particular age when they follow you into the loo and everything. Not sure of the neurological reasoning but it is a clearly defined stage in development, and totally normal.

I wouldn't want to bugger up this bit iyswim!

Here, look

Cola, from your responses it's quite obvious that although you may be a psychology graduate, you are not knowledgeable about child psychology by any means. Separation anxiety is a normal stage of child development that usually starts at around 9 months of age and then starts to diminish from about 18 months (this does vavy a bit from child to child like most other areas of development). It's believed that they become distressed when their carer is out of their sight because they cannot understand that the situation is temporary and believe they've been abandoned. Therefore, they are distressed for an understandable reason from their point of view.

IMHO I'm not sure that I would leave a distressed child to go skiing, I'd probably leave it until they were a bit older and were happy to be left not least because I wouldn't be able to enjoy myself knowing that dc was sobbing for me. It's a common problem that the maximum maternity leave ends when a child is about 11 months when a majority of babies are experiencing it. I think that the government set this for economic reasons as it has nothing to do with a child's readiness to be left (this is not a rant about WOHMs but rather government policy).

This is what I wanted to say in my earlier posts but was too knackered to sort out, so I just made brief and less helpful comments

Thanks Northshields

shield I mean

Cola, you were unnecassarily rude.
Babies needs their mums. They are not manipulative, selfish, planning all this out etc. They are babies and designed to need their mums. Its only modern society that tells us to leave babies, to put what we want first. Sure, every mum needs a break but don't have a baby unless you're prepared to be with it.
Maybe reading some stuff on 'Taking Children Seriously' would help to see where I'm coming from. There's a website somewhere. Or 'The Natural Child'
I never leave my dd. She's 4, brain injured, and gets very distressed. And she could pass away any day. So I don't resent being with her. you never get the time back IMO but you can go to dinner, skiing, parties etc when they grow up.

I was a psychologist when I worked but the majority of them making pronouncements didn't have kids. They just 'studied' them or saw them as pateints.

NMC I thought she was really rude to you too.

Two other things to bear in mind:

1. As HC says, How much will you enjoy skiing if you have left a sobbing child behind? It sounds as though your friends are encouraging you to 'toughen up' as much as your baby - but you have every right to follow your instincts and do what you feel comfortable with.

2. It is sod's law that when you go she will be teething/have a cold and will be even more in need of you.

I also think that although controlled crying 'works' for some people as far as I understand it is situation specific - just because it works at home, doesn't mean to say it will work on holiday.

MP, I agree for bedtime CC can work well.

But to just 'wean' a child from needing a parent seems damned odd to me.

As someone else posted, SA is caused by lack of understanding that you will return. A young child will think the have been left for good.

Just wrote a bloody excellent retort filled with humour and a few comebacks but dd came over and hit a key and bang all gone!! arghhhh!

To nmc, I did not want to upset you, if i came across as rude may have been work voice still in use, this has a tendency to happen, but dragthing seems happy with the advice she has sort and that is the main thing as you will all agree, as for the rest its just my opinion, take it or leave it, but as you would agree an opinion should never be apologised for.

I will most probably meet you all again in the mn world and look forward to it, ladies have a good day, and please unless you are going to tell me how gracious I am in defeat I will not reply as my mn virtual heart will be broken.

From a very crushed cola cube

Can't help but like you reading that

dragthing, you sounded pretty satisfied with your friend's advice, but just in case you were interested in a voice that (I think) is supportive of that approach, here is one ..
(by the way, I have read the whole thread, but some of it yesterday and some today, so I'm sorry if I get the wrong end of any sticks. especially pointy ones)

My view is that sep anxiety is a normal developmental stage, as lots of people have said, and of course being a developmental stage it can be totally different for different children, so can happen earlier/later, be more/less severe, etc.
One of the things that helps RESOLVE sep anxiety is the baby learning that, even if you do leave their sight, you are not abandoning them, and they can stay safe even without you there. I think that was what your friend was saying too? You can help your baby to feel secure by gently giving them more space from you, and letting them find out they are ok with other people/with you at more of a distance. So, the stuff your friend suggested would help do this. It is more that you are 'weaning' the baby from their fear that they can't be without you, than 'weaning' them from you.

I'm not going to go on trying to explain more clearly, cos this is too long already, tho I'm aware this might sound foggy (I blame a preg brain )

don't worry about it Cola

nmc - wow - that's the first time I've ever seen anyone apart from me mention TCS at Mumsnet :-) friendly wave

"dragthing seems happy with the advice she has sort and that is the main thing as you will all agree"

I see where you are coming from here, but actually I don't agree! I think the most important thing is if Dragthing's child is happy or not. Dragthing is an adult and capable of deferring the pleasure of skiing all day to another year when her baby will no doubt be delighted to go off to day care and play in the snow all day.

Also, of course separation anxiety is a normal phase, but like other normal phases such as crawling, being breastfed, lying on your back eating your toes for hours etc, I don't believe you can rush it. You can't teach a child who is not developmentally ready to do so to walk or talk and I don't think you can teach a child experiencing separation anxiety not to be upset. You can teach them not to cry about being upset but that's a different thing and IMO rather sad.

Go have just typed a reply and lost it

Went skiing when lo was 11 mos and was nervous for all the reasons mentioned but totally relaxed when met nanny ( from a reputable company which is common with more expensive holidays) she was brilliant and the other mother in the party felt the same.
Sometimes its good for mum to get away for a bit (with hubby) and consequently good for baby. I hate CC but if other mums want to use this its for their own reasons. However this is not the same as CC. I'm sure leaving your baby in short term care wouldn't cause damage, the most important thing is that you are consitant as parents. I am also a pyschology graduate and a parent but would say your instincts are far more important(and I have studied Bowlby-I'm sure we can take our own angle on this- I understood that it was good to form a stable relationship with at least one caregiver and it didn't concentrate on short term care).