ok it has finally happened, ds has started with the 4 yo boy hyper thing and it is driving me nuts, BUT I am still a lentil weaver, so what do I do?

[Fillyjonk]

He SEEMS to be being deliberately naughty. As (when he has been told not to) in chucking stuff on the floor, shouting to wake up his sisters, swinging on the doors (this drives me irrationally nuts-I am terrified they will come off their hinges and fall on him, as indeed one nearly did). He also says, when challenged, that he is trying to provole us.

He also has so much freaking energy. He is walked religiously twice a day, and aside from that the garden is set up so he can play out there alone safely whenever he wants (he doesn't seem to feel the cold ). But he is always bouncing off the walls.

Now I am not one for rewards and punishment but I have talked and talked here.

He does have a very new sister, in addition to a 2 yo sister, but this has all been going on for a few months now. I have obviously talked with him about the baby, I honestly am not getting the impression that its that. And I have religiously spent 1-1 time with the older kids every day since the birth.

I am wondering if I am expecting too much here. He is very verbal and I think does reason out loud pretty well, so perhaps I am thinking there is more deliberation going on in his head than there actually is?

Thoughts?

My 3.5yo boy does similarly provocative things all the time (and I can't imagine it will change when he turns 4) - he loves to shout No! and sing Space Pirates at the top of his voice to wake us up, he throws things and acts recklessly all the time. But he is lovely and clever and sweet as well - boys are so sensitive and i think more likely to act out their frustrations than actually tell you about them - it drives me mad (but I have a similar tendency)

I do time out in his room if he is very very naughty (after being warned several times) which does calm him down ususally, but I think he is asserting his independence and trying to get attn. with younger sibs on the scene it can be difficult as he still wants to be Mummy's little boy, and he is growing up so he also wants to do his own thing regardless of how socially acceptable or safe it is.

I imagine that it will pass (with mine this phase will stop about the same time he leaves home i think!!!)

Sorry that is probably no help at all!

I have a 5 yo who has been through this stage and in many respects still returns there. I also work in a pre-school and know about positive reinforcement etc I found bribery worked with ds though as well as 2 strikes and you're out type warnings. He begs for another chance usually. He doesn't listen when in full energy mode so he needs to be stopped and spoken to quietly with eye contact - kneeling down to his level. He also needs to know I carry out my threats so going to his room or standing out in the hall for a few minutes gets him thinking. When he's with a group of boys he isn't the worst so for that I am grateful

Sanfran is right positive reinforcement is very effective - and so is retaining your own calm, against the onslaught ... good luck.

I agree about rewards and punishment - I am not a fan of "punishing" my child, but I do think it is ok to have clear consequences in place for inappropriate, violent or potentially dangerous behaviour -With ds we try to ensure that he knows exactly what behaviour is not tolerated, why it is not tolerated and what the consequence of "crossing the line" will be - usually it will be a few minutes of "thinking time" on a chair in a quiet room.

Hi Filly!

DS is 6 and in theory something should be going on in his head, but I'm not so sure. Yesterday I tried being a "talk so they bl**dy listen" mum but failed miserably. I then reverted to bribe and punishment mode. I like the idea of talking and getting them to behave through reasoning, I'm just not patient enough! And fair enough, if I can't do it why should I expect him to as well? (as I revert to shouty mode).

What I think I need is more ways to get him to express his emotions without hurting someone, and controlling those wild impulses, so hints on that would help me (other than just getting them to grow up a bit more). DS is very verbal but he is also completely lacking in impulse control and has a pretty short fuse as well. one idea from that "talk so kids listen" book is getting them to draw their anger, I might try that next time!

LOTS of exercise helps - can you enrol him in a regular football class so he runs around a lot? Swimming is good too.

Don't underestimate impact of new sibling either, they do recognise that it takes time away from them, and they would rather have 100% if they could, even if you think you are giving them 50%.

Sounds just like my 4 year old twins so it must be a 4 year old boy thing.

Can only recommend loads (and I mean loads) of exercise, rough and tumble (with daddy or a little friend) and as little sugar(rocket fuel)as you can manage.

Sounds like my 4 year old. Last week he peed on teh carpet...

I caught mine with the backdoor open and just peeing openly onto the patio outside-hes 5..what is it with them?

No advice, sorry (my oldest is only 2.4) but what's a lentil weaver?

I was going to say that the 4yo's at pre-school are notorious for going off their heads between now and end of summer term. They're bored of all the activities available and mostly the behaviour improves when they move onto school. But I think you're home ed aren't you? So I'm not sure whether that causes the same level of tiredness that school does - it's not so much the learning to read etc that's tiring but other new challenges such as; How do I get my lunch?, mastering the geography of the school building and the onslaught of meeting X-number of new and different aged children etc. It certainly gave my 4yo something else to focus on.

Your DS certainly seems to be getting loads of daily exercise but does he have a hobby or favourite sport yet? Swimming lessons are particularly good (and useful plus there are certificates) or sessions at a gym perhaps? Or as florence says, football club?

"but it's just a phase and it will pass".

Feck, that wasn't supposed to sound like a 'school is best' post but a 'find him some new challenges' post. What or where the challenges are is less important than the need to stretch 4yo's from being a pre-schooler to being a child.

Yes, I was wondering about boredom and some external activities too. Or at least some new project to get his teeth into. I still do that with 6yo ds, who needs a focu for his 'spare time' and is currently researching aeroplanes...

Or is that the antithesis of lentil weaving?

My almost four-year old ds is displaying similar behaviour and he's become aggressive too. And yes, the swinging on the door thing drives me nuts too. Continual skwirming and falling off chairs while eating is also high up on the irritation scale for me.

thanks for all replies, am on/off computer due to new baby but will try to reply, am reading now (wanted to respond in case I got called away first IYKWIM)

hi filly - congrats with new dd!! - I have no experience of my own (yet!) but my dsis found it effective that the wilder her ds got, the quieter she got. She also said lots of tight, close hugs when her ds was losing his rag - would make him go limp and then he could talk better. Good luck...

ah florence he is not even getting 50%

He already has ONE little sister, so best case scenario is more like 33.3 recurring %

He is not actually violent or aggressive, but he is WILD. He is like this

(god would the solution just be to make him a shirt like that, and ignore the rest ?

I am feeling bad re exercise, he is getting about as much as I can manage atm. Him being walked is a big priority, and he does a load of classes-most days we do either soft play, or an organised gym class, plus he is walked, plus, at LEAST 3/5 days he will end up at a home edding group or a friends house and run about with his small cronies for 2 or 3 hours.

The challenges thing IS interesting actually. He's been doing some structured some (we are very unstructured in approach bu recognise that he seems to benefit from it). He's been learning to read/write and doing some maths, but that HAS fallen by the wayside, tbh, since his sister was born. He does always have projects on the go, atm he has an electronics kit that he can do on his own, but he also does socially with several of his particularly geekly relatives.

I am actually wondering if that is it though-for the last few months it HAS all been a bit chaotic, and he is a child who likes structure. Recently, we've been rushing (I've been tired in the mornings), we haven't always done the same things every week, for various reasons...

Am wondering if a first approach might be to increase what he can do for himself, so sort his drawers out so he can get himself dressed easily and have a magnetic chart with what we are doing each day on it.

ps sorry this is garbled, I am touch typing and the baby is about to return from changing so I can't preview.

I find the only way to deal with ds (7 today!!!!) sometimes is to think of him as a labrador puppy. Long long runs, lots of rough and tumble, tons of food and chuck him out into the garden if he starts chewing stuff.

Ds entered a NO / challenging / defiant phase about 6 months ago

fun isn't it?

I definitely feel now that some of the behaviour is directly testing and seeing what he can get away with

I feel it's right (for my ds) to be firmer and set more boundaries where necessary

not punishments etc but clear rules and saying when things are not ok

can someone talk more re boundries, esp from an AP pov? How do you all mean?

We do have boundries but I am wondering if people might mean other boundries, or other ways to do it.

The thing is, because we have pretty much always had 2 kids, ds has always had SOME of what I would see as boundries.

Some things, eg hitting, have always been an absolute no, and resulted in removal from the situation (alfie kohn would tell me off but-I have 22 months between my older two ). I mean, I am a lentil weaver in many ways but I know my strictness and the fact that we have consistent rules causes raised eyebrows among my more hippiesqe friends ()

Actually the big problem is with introducing NEW boundries now, eg "don't swing on the door" (incidentally, the door HAS now come off its hinges )

We've tried the "sitting and thinking approach" but it just doesn't really seem to work. He will sit still, as long as we sit with him (else he gets really, genuinely upset, and I can see his point, so I won't do this to him) but I doubt he is actually thinking on his crimes, since usually after 5 seconds he starts singing the muffin man song .

I dunno, this is probably my own fault for being so smug all this time-he has hardly ever tantrummed, never went through a "no" stage, ASKS for fish and salad-this is my comeuppance, isn't it?

what I really want is to know what is going on in his head

but dp says it is not like that for boys. It is more "must run-run now-oops, door"

I read a couple of years ago (when DS1 was 4, and i was banging my head on the walls), boys at this age have a higher testostrone surge than when they are teenagers. Not that this helps. DS1 was a complete nightmare, i even thought school would help. But no. He was introduced to a Traffic Lights behavior chart. Red = bang out of order. Orange = That was not acceptable. Green = You've been a little diamond, heres a magasine, bouncy ball, time watching TV etc. Too many reds on a day = no football, no TV, etc. It really has worked, DS 1 who is now 6, stops and says out loud to himself, "No, i want a suprise, football, park etc". We have also started doing this with DS2 4 as he can be a right little , and have noticed, greens really do matter. Good luck.

My DS also like this. Things that help us:

Lighten up on discipline and punishments. But be firm when the line is crossed.

Avoid treating him like his younger sister. He is older and needs a different approach.

Find activities that he enjoys and that stretch him a little (I take him swimming without DD and take himout on his bike, DH takes him to the climing wall).

Give him choices and plenty of free time.

Don't expect too much.

sorry Filly am not sure what you want us to say about boundaries? Can you be more specific? I tend to muddle through a lot of the time so don't have fab and easy techniques

Our boundaries are - absolutely no aggressive, violent or destructive behaviour (which would include pulling door off hinges) - I give one warning which involves short chat and a repeat offence will earn some sort of chastisement ie. time in room. My DS1 understands why it's wrong and he also learned pretty quick to recognise that I know when he's trying to play innocent. I am fairly strict, more so than most of my friends. But I'm also consistent. And I think fair. Running around and shouting are OK in moderation but I try to turf them outside if it's too er, energetic.

Challenges for a 4yo that we liked:

• getting his own cereal & drink in the morning
• choosing clothes & dressing in the morning if he isn't already (and yes you will have to suffer red & orange stripes with green spots but hey-ho!)
• setting table for dinner/carrying dirty plates to the sink afterwards
• unpacking school bag/packing bag for swimming
• arranging & sticking work in scrap book
• sticker collections (useful for learning high numbers too)
• learning about money and spending own in shops
• supervising the shopping list
• tidying own room
• collecting kindling for fire and storing it in the right place in the log store (in writing that sounds a tad Victorian!)
• collecting eggs/making up animal feeds
• doing own seat belt (I do check it though)