I am truly at my wits end with DD's (4.6) behaviour, don't know what else to do except sit in the corner and cry...............

[StaceyBranning]

DD (4.6) since Xmas has become increasingly hard work. She just says no to me all the time no matter what I ask to do. IAt first I got angry and shouted but this just made us both worse. DH suggested trying to find out what was wrong. She is usually a very helpful, polite sweet little girl, she occasionally has tantrums but that's all they were and she soon go tover them.
Now she won't stay in her bedroom and most nights (after being taken back upsatirs about 10 times by Me and DH) she doesn't go to sleep until 10pm ish. I know a lot of it stems from being tired.
We have a routine of 7pm bed and 7:30pm lights out, she has a story then bed.
During the day she just says no to me all the time (but smiles and does anything daddy says) and says things like 'I am not going to to and you can't make me!' I am currently suffering with chronic headaches and am having a brain scan tomorrow and have had various other tests to find out whats wrong. i know my patience is not great at the moment but I am really trying to be understanding and understand why she has turned into this rude little girl. We use a reward chart but that seems to be making her worse becasue if she doesn't get enough stars she kicks off. I try taking toys away but she just shrugs ger shoulders and says she doesn't care.
The only way i can get her to stop is when i am in a ball on the floor sobbing my eyes out.
Aren't they supposed to be 13 when they develop and attitude
Please help, any advice would be appreciated as I don't know what else to.

Did she start school in September? My ds did and it changed his behaviour and I know from other parents in his class that they are experiencing similar changes.

i'm afraid i've not got much advice...does she know that you are going for a brain scan and that you've been having headaches? could she be worried about you and it's manifesting itself as bad behaviour towards you?

She did start scholl in Sept and so far she has seemed okay. You may be right though maybe school has had something to do with it.

She knows that Mummy gets headaches and when they are bad I ca't speak properly or lift anything, I also get very dizzy and have to lay down. She is fantastic when I am bad and gets me some water and my tablets. She doesn't know about the tests as i am not sure she would understand and I have beem having them whilst she is at school.

My ds1 is 4.5 and really getting an attitude. Things are getting a bit better but only after I got really strict with him. HAve you tried sending her to her room when she is mouthy? (I'm assuming your statement about her not staying in it was at bedtime) Sometimes I just say to ds1, I'm not going to tolerate that kind of talking. Go to your room until you can be nicer.

Does she do this at school? My ds1's teacher uses a traffic light things at school - it's made of construction paper. Each child has a clothespin with their name written on it. If they are good it stays on the green part that has a smiley face, if not so good then yellow with a straight mouth and really bad then red with a sad mouth. A lot of times all I have to do is tell ds1 "I'm going to call your teacher and tell her to move your clip for tomorrow" I keep meaning to make one for home but the above is still working atm, lol.

They can be very trying at this age!

I did try putting her in her room but she got into a rage and kicked the door until toe bled! She also picked up her lovely fairy collection and smashed some of them to pieces. She gets to a point where is almost can't beathe with rage (this is not often has only happened a few times) DH seems to be the only one who can calm her down as I am usually also very angry by this point too.

My Mum keps telling me she will grow out of it, but what if she doesn't and she gets worse and ends up taking her anger out on her Brother or other kids at school, I don't think just brushing it off as a phase is the answer and really want to get to the bottom of whats causing it so i can deal with it and help learn to be a calm, happy girl. Maybe then i can be a calm happy Mummy!

I am going through this atm and I have found the only thing that works is consistent discipline and sraightforward talking! Also , giving her lots of praise and responsibility in th home- washing up, tidying, laying the table etc seems to have helped a lot.
IMHO, I feel it is also us mothers adjsting to them being at school- there is a shift in your relationship iyswim

When she is good or helpful i give her a big kiss and say what a good girl she has been and doesn't feel nice to smile and be happy. She says yes and runs off to tell daddy (or phone him at work) that she has been good. I feel releived and think we have turned a corner then 5mins later she reverts back to being rude. My Mum came to visit last week and had bought her a little bag with a matching shopping list pad (DD is ahopping mad) I asked DD to come downstairs and say hello but she refused and wouldn't talk to my Mum at all. My Mum went up to speak to her and she slammed the door in My Mum's face. Needless to say m Mum was livid and said she needed a good hiding to sort her out! Mum and I had a few upset words and she left. I tried to explain to DD what she did was rude and upsetting but she just said she didn't care and ignored me. When i told DH what she had done she she i was lying and she had been really good all day!!!

Have been going through something similar recently with my 4.5 dd. You have my sympathies because I suffer from bad migraines and it's always when I'm at my worst that dd seems to sense weakness and play up; anxiety at seeing her mother unwell is also a factor I'm sure.

School makes a huge difference as well (a) due to tiredness and (b) because they are exposed to new and exciting negative behaviours by their peers for the first time -

• but I'm also rapidly coming to the conclusion that it's just a difficult age when they test boundaries. If you switch to 'alphabetical listings' on this site you will encounter a million threads that start with 'four year old playing up/being stroppy/impossible'. So you are definitely not alone!!

I've found a combination of quite strict boundaries, pasta jar reward scheme, lots of exercise is helping but things are by no means perfect. Am struggling to implement strategies in "How to talk to kids so kids listen" which is often recommended here. It's a good book actually, I'm just not carrying out the advice very well.

If Honoria Glossop is about, she always has good advice to share on these matters.

Hope your hospital tests go well.

btw jabberwocky - thanks for traffic light tip - brilliant - will try and construct one here ...

If she is not going to sleep until very late and then going to school she must be exhausted which just makes the behaviour ten times worse.

I would say that is the first step to cracking the problem, If she has plenty of sleep for a week or so and is still a nightmare then I would think you need to look further.

Unfortunalty I have no idea how to get her to have sleep, hopefully somebody else will come along and help with that bit, my dd is also 4.5 and is a b&*(&^y nightmare at the mo. You have lots of sympathy, I think 4 is definatley the worst age if you look through threads on here.

Do you use Timeout? I am trying this at the moment but problems I'm having include DS (3.5) having full blown tantrums and refusing to sit on step. Does anyone have any tips for making them sit on step?

Sorry also forgot to say that you are obviously having a really hard time anyway at the moment and things may get easier when you have had your scan, they pick up on every little bit of tension around.

Also big hugs and hope you are OK.

Hi these children all sound exactly like my dd. I dont remember my eldest being like this and naturally thought it was just me. So glad to hear that I am not alone. I am going to have to start coming down hard on my dd but she is so cute with the cheek that sometimes it is too hard to do anything. Sending my dd to her room used to be a punishment but I dont think it is now as she sees her room as her safe place so am going to have to rethink what to do about it. Will watch this thread though.

Thanks everyone it is nice to know I am not alone. a friend has suggested speaking to her teachers to see what they say.

If she's like my ds1 the teachers will tell you what a model, adorable child you have

Oh, just remembered something I read about putting children in the bath to calm them down. I haven't tried it yet, but the idea was that water is calming and no matter what time of day it is you just say, "I think you need a nice bath to calm down" and in they go.

Glad you liked the traffic light idea, counting

My DD is only just 4 (last Friday) and her behaviour has deteriorated badly. She hits, screams and throws massive tantrums which result in her being sent to her room. She goes in there and slams the door so hard, the walls rattle and pictures fall off. She trashes her room, pulling clothes out of drawers and tossing them around before jumping on them, throwing and smashing toys, the list goes on.

The discipline thing doesn't seem to be working now, she loves going to her room because she plays in there. Have thought about taking all her toys away but can't be that mean.

I just don't know what to do and I'm worried how she is going to be when the baby arrives. I do think this may be part of it, but her behaviour was on a downward spiral before I found out about the baby. She hasn't yet started school so I can't even attribute it to that. I just don't know anymore. I think I might try the traffic light idea and see how that goes down.

Will watch this with interest.

(When she is good or helpful i give her a big kiss and say what a good girl she has been and doesn't feel nice to smile and be happy.)

I'm uncomfortable with this. The phrase "good girl" bothers me. I'd prefer, "wow, you did that so well. Thanks!", rather than having you decide her 'worth' as a person. She's a good person or a bad person because she does/doesn't do something? And "doesn't it feel nice to smile and be happy" sounds patronizing. If she wants to be grumpy she has a right to be grumpy.

I'd like someone with some psychology training to weigh in on this.

Maybe you could do some role playing. You each have a doll. Things happen and her dolly gets to express her feelings. For instance, your dolly takes a toy from her dolly. How does DD feel about that? What would she do? It gives your daughter a way to act out various situations and say how she feels about them.

So sorry you are having these medical problems.

I think it may be school, DD started in sept at 3.5 and since going back in january has been a nightmare, losing temper so bad that she cant even calm down, throwing things, telling me she will throw xyz if I dont do such and such, being rude, back chat nd my favorite one is to tell me she doesnt like me and then stomp up the stairs to her bedroom.

A few threads ive read recently all seem to have children who have just started school so it must be something to do with school.

I think that spending so much time with other children whose behaviour may be different to how you would expect your dd to behave may have some effect also the upheaval of school as by now the novalty has worn off or just at that age.

Hansie, I take your point, it's very hard to be objective and think of alternative ways of saying things, my initial response was to praise her 'good' behaviour in the hope that the more attention she receives for good behaviour the better she will be.

I like to doll idea and will give it a try at teh weekend when we are not rushed and have time to spend together, will let you know I get on.

I know my moods affect her so I am trying very hard to keep my spirits up and keep my down moments to myself at the moment so she doesn't constantly have a 'poorly' Mummy.

Fingers crossed for my scan today, I am a bit nervous don't know why I won't know the results for a while yet!

I really feel for you, I am at mits end with my dd sometimes and she is 4. I definatelt think they pick up an awful lot from school/nursery and TV, I ban my dd watching horrid henry etc. I think its just testing testing testing and if she knows you are feeling ill she may be worried about that a little have you talked to her about it?

Also, maybe you need to spend some quality mum and daughter time together which often dissapears when they start school- go swimming together at tea time and have some chips on the way ome one evening? it will tire her out and remind her what its like to be with mummy

There's a book I heard of on here called "how to talk so kids will listen". It basically works on empathising with your child, so if they are in a rage, you say " I know you are angry, it must be hard when .....".

Personally I didn't like the book itself, but I did like the approach IYSWIM, and I think it works. Even if it doesn't help with the behaviour, it helps as a tool to handle it calmly. I've (mostly) tried to stop shouting, so at least I'm not getting worked up. Because all that stress won't help you and your health.

If you want to investigate the book, and decide it might help, you are very welcome to have mine.

how is dh helping you with all this? This needs you both to support each other and be consistent with her. My DD used to run straight to daddy if I disciplined her (with a loud"I'm telling Daddy on you". Once he started supporitng me more it got better.

ChocMum, I definitely feel Mum/DD time is lacking, I work in the evenings and also 2 days during the week. I am often very tired on the evenings I don't work so when she keeps coming downstairs and won't go to bed i am in no mood to deal with her. Weekends however, are our time and I try to spend as much time with with her and DS (1.3) as I can. We play and dress up, take her bike out or just go and do the shopping together on our own, but, there is always stuff that needs doing (ironing, washing etc..) and so she kicks off. DH does more than his fair share of the housework and spends time with the kids too.

Thanks for all the posts

DH is great, we always have been a team when it comes to the kids, we always back each other in front of them(even if we don't agree) and talk about it later. He finds it hard because of the way she talks to me. She is without a doubt a Daddy's girl and she plays on it. He tries to talk to her but she just clams up and won't say anything. When i try to talk to her we just end up in a row.