What does your 3yo do all day? I am concerned about what is being asked of mine.

[TigerFeet]

DD is 3.6

DH and I both work OTH FT, she is in nursery from 8.15-5pm Mon-Fri. Nursery up until now was great. This term she has moved to the pre-school and since then her behaviour has seriously deteriorated.

She was always described previously as an imaginitive loving child - which is how we see her. Now we are being told that she isn't concentrating properly and is too demanding of attention from the carers.

Now - Good imagination = lack of concentration/wandering off subject in class

Loving and sociable = attention seeking and demanding

It's a fine line isn't it?

It seems that what was OK, even applauded, in the baby rooms and kinde is frowned upon in pre-school. I am really sad about it - I love the way she grabs hold of a concept and takes it for a long walk via Timbuctoo. I love the way I can be doing boring housework and she will come up to me, ask for a kiss and cuddle (which she gets with bells on), then wander off and carry on with whatever she was doing before.

I can see why it might be annoying if a teacher has to deal with this sort of thing in a class full of children sitting and listening quietly to the day's subject... but... SHE IS 3 YEARS OLD FFS... it is not school... and I am cross that her imagination and affectionate nature are being stifled at such a young age.

So yes, I am seriously considering alternative childcare, and this isn't what I am asking but a bit of rambly background.

DD's behaviour is rapidly deteriorating. I think it could be partly because she is being asked a lot of at nursery. The pre-school is very much a reception setting staffed by qualified primary school teachers. There is a curriculum and they learn stuff. Too much, too soon imho. Could this be affecting her behaviour? She is there a lot of her waking hours during the week and this sort of thing may be fine for a couple of hours every day or a couple of days a week. She is shattered at the weekends and dh and I are trying to cram in shopping/housework etc in this time which can't be much fun for her either. I feel she is constantly being told to do something and has very little down time herself.

She is a bugger for sleeping - she doesn't like being alone. We are not actively trying to stop this - very much taking the path of least resistance and trying to make her feel secure by being there if she wants us but we are all knackered because of this and dh feels pushed out because usually dd only wants me and has the screaming ab dabs if dh goes anywhere near her when she wakes at night.

She is reacting very badly to being told "no" - way above and beyond her usual mini-sulk. We are talking full blown lying-on-the-floor kicking and screaming tantrums, several times a day.

I already suffer from horrendous guilt that I spend so much time away from her - up until very recently it was financially not possible for me to give up work. Now it is slightly more feasible but we don't know until March where she will go to school and it is hard to make plans until we know (eg if she doesn't get the place we want I will have to drive her to school. If I need a car I will have to stay at work so I can afford to run it. And more reasons ad infinitum not least of which being what do I do when she goes to school, might as well work).

So what do you think? Is any or all of the above affecting dd's behaviour? Or do most 3yo's have phases like this and I am overanalysing

Thanks for getting this far.

I have just spent the morning at my DS's pre-school. He loves it there and goes 5 mornings a week. He will be 4 in April, so about the same age as your daughter. It sounds similar to your DD's preschool - they are learning things, and the day is quite structured. I think it's a great place for DS1 to be for the sessions he goes to, but I wouldn't want it to be his full time care (if I worked FT OTH, I'm a SAHM).

I think if DS1 went there FT his behaviour would change - I think some of the rebellious nature which is curbed at p/s would come out at home (it does already), and he'd be very tired (wouldn't necc. sleep longer/better, but might just be grumpy and difficult during the day). DS1 is certainly ready for the weekend break, so if he was f/t I'd imagine he'd be a lot harder to handle.

I'd say that a combination of p/s and childminder might be the way to go. You don't want to give up a (good?) job for what might just be a few months until she starts school. What are your plans for the summer? Our p/s follows school holidays, so will be shut then.

BTW - In the afternoons DS1 just wants to 'chill out' and do his own thing - a bit of watching TV, playing by himself, or with his friends. He'll tolerate a bit of craft or structured activity, but prefers just to play under his own steam.

Thanks Laura

It's a privately run daycare nursery so it is open all year apart from Christmas. Once she starts school holidays will be covered by a combination of holiday club, grandparents, dh & I covering between us.

I do very little structured play with dd - I feel she gets enough of that already. A shame really.

Perhaps I will split childcare between her current preschool and a childminder

I think a lot of children go through a phase between 2 and 3 where they figure out they can exert their own independence, I know I have been through rough periods around this age with both of my two.

But sounds like you are also not happy with the pre-school. My understanding of a pre-school is that they do try to prepare them a bit more for school, probably more children than nursery and the staff probably dont have so much time to spend individually with each child, there is a curriculum at my dd's pre-school, not sure who it is set by but its not the preschool.

My dd is very chatty and always has been and I do love that about her but at pre-school she is having to learn that there is a time for chat and there is a time to be quiet. However, she only goes 3 mornings a week so plenty of time to let her true personality out.

Oh and another thing...

Weekend before last we went away and had a wonderful weekend with friends instead of our usual combo of slobbing/housework/shopping. That has left her even more tired than usual last week and she was grim this weekend. I really don't want to cut out weekend visits as all family and close, old friends live at least a two hour drive away. But it really doesn't help the situation at all

[rambles]

[self combusts]

jenkel - you have hit the nail on the head there - I don't have a problem with the preschool per se, I am wondering if she has too much of it.

When I collect her tonight I will have a proper chat with her key worker and see what she thinks.

Not much experience of pre-school yet (DD is 2.6) however I agree with those who have said that a bit of structure is fine but not all day five days a week for a 3y.o. I second the childminder option as your DD will be at someone's home in the aft and she could relax and choose what she feels like doing plus have someone to hug, snuggke up to and feel safe with if she's tired or upset etc. I think my DD would react like yours. she fits your description and she'll def miss the one to one attention and would be exhausted and naught the rest of time. Mine is very good and obedient as long as you take the time to explain things to her.

I'd try that before leaving the job.

good luck

DS2 goes to preschool 5 mornings a week, it does sound similar structure to your little girls nursery but it is only half days, the afternoons that he is not there he potters around playing with his toys, going to the swings reading some stories, baking, just general stuff but no structure or demands made on him.

Is there a middle ground at the nursery where you can request that she does half days in that environment and the other in a more play environment?

my ds is 3 and has started school this year (they start at 3 here in Spain) and it sounds a lot like your preschool - basically more structured than nursery, with a few learning concepts being introduced but still quite a bit of learning through play. I'd say we are having quite a similar experience with ds, including not wanting to sleep alone (our approach to it sounds exactly the same as yours), but with one vital difference - the teachers. ds's teachers are lovely, kind, jolly and caring, and although his main teacher has told me he can be quite demanding, she has said it isn't a problem which kind of sums up her attitude really.

Could the problem be as simple as her teachers aren't right for her? Can you change schools?

ds is totally knackered in the evenings, (9am till 5 with a sleep 2-3) but because he loves his teachers so much is generally happy with it all. Does your dd take a nap while she's there, or could she, if it would help her general levels of energy and therefore maybe happiness? ds finds it hard to get to sleep by himself but after a couple of weeks lying down next to his friends with his own little blanket he usually manages to sleep or at least rest at school, and if not then at least he's had a chill out time.

I understand that this amount of structure doesn't suit all 3 year olds but it does happen to suit my ds - but only with sleeps. If changing preschool isn't an option I'd agree with the CM idea too.

hmm yes half days definitely worth considering.

Food for thought here, thanks

sorry kitbit x posted

dd has dropped her nap recently. could well be worth reinstating it at school

will definitely have a good chat with the teachers tonight.

I'd take her out and find a nanny or childminder who could possibly take her to playgroups or a less structured pre-school for a couple of hours a day

My DD is about the same age .. goes to pre-school 2.5 hours a day .. it is undemanding play and unstructured with the chance of learning if child-led

I think your gut feeling is right on this

Agree with Twiglett. IME the age of 3 is difficult anyway, as we suddenly start demanding quite a bit more of our children. A necessary stage for them to go through, of course, but it does sound like it's getting a bit much for your dd. My dc's at that age went to a childminder (all day) 2 days a week and to preschool only 2.5 hours twice a week.

If you haven't used it yet, don't forget your 13 weeks of parental leave (unpaid!) Could you apply to take a chunk of time off, 4 or 6 weeks and cut your DD down to half days during it - use the second half to find a good CM if it looks like that will work.

I did it due to t a childcare emergency and (ahem) ended up as SAHM, but it doesn't have to go that way

Yes, it sounds like it's too much for a 3 yo.

My ds has just started his 12.5 hrs free nursery, and there is no emphasis on learning; just play .. some of it structured, some of it not.

Tbh, if I catch the merest whiff of anything curricular, I'll take him out like a shot.

I think you're right that the type and amount of preschool she's getting is too much too soon. DS sounds very like your DD in temperament and I'm glad that his nursery remains very much play-based right up until they leave for reception.

It seems very sensible to be thinking in terms of moving to reduced preschool sessions and a childminder -- it sounds like a good way to reduce the load on your DD and allow her more time to be herself.

My DD is 3.2. I am a SAHM (albeit with a very part-time job) and my daughter has been at a bilingual French école maternelle (pre-school) since she was 2.10. School is 2 hours 45 minutes 5 mornings a week and is quite structured - uniform, a curriculum, French and English lessons. There are only fourteen children in her class, however, all born between July and December 2004.

Quite truthfully, this quantity of "school" is more than enough for my (robust) daughter. At the slightest sign of illness or fatigue I am quite happy to keep her home for the morning. On those weeks when she does do a full week she is shattered by Friday.

So I quite understand that your daughter is overwhelmed by what she is supposed to be doing at nursery and think you would be quite justified in investigating alternatives for you/her. Good luck.

My DD is 3 as well and goes to day nursery 3 full days a week. She does find this very tiring although I think they have more downtime when they can just wonder around playing with duplo or dolls or sharing a book with one of the staff than it sounds like your DD has. I do find though that DD is very tired on nursery days (more than she was, say, 6 months ago) and have started putting her to bed at 7 sometimes (her usual bedtime is 7.30 and gets up no sooner than 7). Yesterday she slept for an hour in the car and was in bed for 7.35 (waiting for DS to get home from beavers) and this morning I had to wake her at 7.10. She also had a 2 hour nap in her bed on Sunday. I think tiredness is definitely having an effect on your DD's behaviour.

I also think that having to conform and follow a structure etc can have a backlash at home. I found this when DS started reception. I wonder from what you say about the finances whether it would be possible for you to drop down to working 4 days a week(sorry don't know what you do) with the possibility of going back to 5 when she starts school or maybe after the first term or whatever. That way you and DD could both have a bit of a break but you would still be keeping your options open.

I'm a childminder and I care for a child the same age as your dd most days when I pick her up about 3pm she is ready to chill out so we come home have a drink and snack and she can do what she wants to do eg drawing, playdough, playing toys/ dressing up with my dd's, watching tv, reading with me etc for about an hour then we have dinner and then she goes home I think it works well it means she can have a rest if she wants to before her parents pick her up sometimes she is still full of beans and we have a disco which the children all love but equally sometimes she is so tired she has fallen asleep in the car on the way home at least with me she has the choice and I don't mind if she doesn't want to sit and do an activity, I don't have targets for her to achieve etc basically as long as she's happy, I'm happy.

Gosh some more replies this morning - thank you all

I spoke to the teacher at dd's preschool last night when I collected her. They have no particular concerns with her behaviour over and above what they expect from a child her age - they just mentioned the lack of attention and clinginess in passing. That's fine but I am still sad that it bears mentioning. She was surprised that dd's behaviour at home is getting so bad as by all accounts she is virtually a model child during the day ( how many parents have been told that ). They are going to have circle time today and discuss the differences between home and school to see what she comes out with. She is not backward in coming forward so she may open up with a problem that we are not aware of or have overlooked.

So it would seem I have overanalysed what was said to me by her carers but I still have all my concerns about her tiredness and behaviour at home that results from it.

I spoke to her key worker this morning (a nursery nurse rather than the teacher I spoke to yesterday). The teacher had called her at home last night to discuss what I had said (am vv impressed with that) so she was aware of my concerns this morning. Her opinion is that dd craves attention and that we can bargain with her a bit at weekends - if you are good for an hour so Mummy and Daddy can do their jobs, we will go swimming when everything is finished - that kind of thing.

I am impressed with the nursery's response - the two women I spoke to are both FT working mums themselves and totally understand where I am coming from. I can't fault their response, their sympathy and their understanding. I can't speak highly enough of them. I was sobbing both yesterday and this morning and I even got hugs

However I am going to look into options which will mean that dd does not spend as much time at nursery as she is doing now.

Thank you all so much for your responses. You have confirmed what I thought and that helps, to know that I am not wrong in my opinions, or that I am not overreacting.

Now all I have to do is sort it out

I am glad everything is better tigerfeet. There's nothing more gut-wrenching and tears-enducing that thinking our LO are sad/not happy/suffering because of our wrong decisions. How many tears I shed on the pillow when had to decide whether to change childminder or not.
happy for you

that sounds brilliant, your dd sounds as though she is in good caring hands which at least is one concern off the list! Hope you manage to find a good balance for her, every 3 year old is different! good luck x

I am coming to this a little late! My dd is 3.6 too and goes to nursery 8.45 - 5pm, 5 days a week (sometimes 4 if grandparents have the time to take her one day)

She is also knackered at weekends and usually her behaviour can be pretty challenging because of this.

However, your dd might just be going through a phase - if she has only just started this new regime, it could be that she needs some time to get used to it. My dd moved to a new room in her nursery when she turned 3, and for about 3 months afterwards her behaviour was so much worse than normal - huge screaming tantrums and aggression etc when she had not been like that before at all.

She is much calmer now and has settled into a routine - just took a bit longer than I expected.

OTOH, I also have a couple of colleagues who have dc at nursery/pre-school in the mornings, then they are collected by a childminder and spend the afternoon there. This seems to work very well.

If you go for this option though it would be another big change your dd may take a while to settle again - if this happens don't immediately assume you have done the wrong thing!

Gosh sorry what a long ramble that was.

3yo's are all v.v. different. At 3.10 my DS was put into reception at the suggestion of the school/pre-school. It was the right decision for him and remains right for him to be "ahead" of his year group. It would be completely and utterly wrong for 90% of 3.11 yo's.

Over-analysing comments is an occupational hazard of being a FT WOHM, I think (comes in a package with the guilt) - chance comments from nursery have reduced me to tears before now. It doesn't explain your DD's behaviour at home, but it sounds as though now the staff know they will help you get to the bottom of that one. Good Luck.

SOunds like you have made a decision. JUst wanted to add that I also think your instinct is right and that its too long/structured a day for a 3 year old.
DS1 is just 3 and struggles to do even a shorter full day (9.30-4) at nursery and he is very energetic.
I think a childminder/nanny combined with nursery could work. Or you could work part time and spend time eg afternoons with her before she starts proper school? You wont have another chance to do that once she is in school and it does sound like you regret/miss that opportunity, sure she would love it too.