situation with ds now desperate - please help if you can!

[cariboo]

I thought if anyone can help, MN can so here is an excerpt of a message I just posted to my sister, who's also a teacher:

"X is a real worry. His "behavioral issues" started up again with a venegence once he got back to school. On Friday he hit his beloved friend Vicky and pushed some other little girls down. He shouted at his teacher & wouldn't share the classroom toy garage. His teacher is sympathetic - I have the impression she really loves X - but she said she's tried all the various disciplinary techniques that she knows, both as a teacher & a mother and nothing works with him. She told me she needs some outside professional support because she can't cope with X and the 19 other 4 yr olds in her class. I'm desperately worried now. I've spoken to several pedopsychiatrists in the area & they are fully booked for months."

Does anyone have any advice? Thanks. I'm frightened, tbh.

Has the teacher referred him to the Educational Psychologist? I would have thought, if she's needing some professional support with him, that would be the first port of call. They have strategies to suggest and may be able to offer an understanding of why he is as he is. They will also do intelligence testing which is not about finding out if he's 'clever' but will give a detailed understanding of where his abilities lie, and show up those areas he's not so hot about....

He/she may also refer on to a paediatrician.

Is there a reason you've been considering pedopsychiatrists? Have you gone through these other options?

You can also get him referred to a paediatrician through your GP.

How is his behaviour at home?

Hi Cariboo. Don't be frightened, I'm sure you are going to get lots of practical advice here on MN. Unfortunately i don't have any advice because I'm not in that situation, but I do have a 4.5 year old boy so I sympathise.

I would have thought that perhaps in the first instance your GP could point you in the right direction of who to approach and where to get the right help.

Good luck and I hope you get all the help you need. x

So is the teacher contacting the ed psych? (Given she said she needs support.) Think a referral would be very helpful.

oh and I should have said, please don't be frightened - poor you. Maybe your son is just not ready for school. In this country we start them so young - most of them cope, and adapt etc...but it's ok for a child of four not to cope with school, in my book!

Have you always found he's had problems with this sort of thing, relating to others, etc?

Today I am just trawling through the threads saying

"I agree with HonoriaGlossip"

I agree with her here, too

Try not to worry Cariboo. The school should refer him or as has been said you can through your own GP (sometimes quicker.) Can you make an appointment to talk it through with the senco?

Had similar with DS2.

School should be asking for Ed Psych and Behaviour Support team to help.

Perhaps getting some funding for a 1 to 1 classroom assistant for a while. Although it will probably be a fight with the school and LEA.

Look into what triggers his behaviour - transitions, circle time, concentrating on a particular task, playtimes etc.

Consider shorter periods in school, building up to full days later.

Full time schooling is just too much for some children at this age.

Yes we've met twice with the Ed Psy who is useless imo. He did come to the school to meet with me & the teacher but arrived 20 mins late. He then had the gall to tell me to "hurry up because I don't have much time" when I was answering a question he asked about ds' behavior at home. I spoke with him on the phone since & asked him, among other things, if he thought we could work together on helping ds. His response: "I don't have a crystal ball, you know". I was practically speechless but managed to retort "Do you mean to tell me that you feel you have no control over the treatment & outcome of my son's difficulties?" I think this guy's an arse & don't think I should involve him further but I don't have a lot of choice, do I?

oh dear cariboo - that does sound an awful experience with the Ed Psych. Did he give you any specific idea of your ds' difficulties? Did he suggest strategies? did he refer on?

Is your ds at private school or state?

Sorry so many questions!

I've got another appointment with ds' pediatrician on Thursday. I'm hoping he can pull some strings & get ds an appointment with a pedopsychiatrist. As I said, he gave me some names last time but they all said they've got waiting lists of 4-6 months.

I thought of taking him out of school, even for the afternoons but it seems to me that he will have "won" his battle with authority in the short term which could actually be damaging in the long term, iyswim: He's fine one to one, although constantly demands attention. When he's alone with dh & me, the frustration & temper tantrums disappear but when dd is with us, he's unbearable.

Private. Fortunately! He started last year already, at just 3 yrs old, because the headmistress said that we had to enroll him from the beginning, otherwise he would have been on a waiting list. We didn't want dd & ds to be in seperate schools so we reluctantly agreed. With hindsight I think it was a big mistake & am really annoyed with this woman. But how could we have known then what the outcome would be?

The psychologist thinks ds is insecure. He may well be but I'm wondering if he hasn't got ADHD or some other disorder? Ohh

I feel at 4 that a child isn't 'winning' a battle, they are simply showing what their needs are. I firmly believe as well that they need to be trusted NOT to extrapolate in a manipulative way - I mean that he will not think "hurray. I'm out of school because I made a fuss. I will do that again at any future point". Clearly they learn by re-inforcement so if there was to be endless taking him out when things didn't work, that might re-inforce the behaviour - but that's not the case here.

I do think it would help to get the professionals to be clear with you. Give him a diagnosis if there is one and if not you still need some guidance and strategies, and so does his teacher.

If this was my ds this is what I'd be looking at doing:
Making sure the teacher has an IEP in place to address your ds' issues and has put in extra support for him in the form of a LSA or TA.
Make sure that the peadiatrician actually gives you a pathway to follow for diagnosis/advice
I'd be considering taking him out of school
I'd be considering Home Ed
i'd be considering a 'small school', an alternative sort of education

Not saying that all of the above would be what I would DO - home ed, another school etc depend on money and circumstances of course.

And I suppose so long as people are coping with him at school and if he doesn't feel labelled as the naughty one, there's a possibility that with some careful management he could get through this year and cope. Depends on how happy he is about going to school and how the incidents affect his self esteem and self perception I think.

ok, sorry cross posted.

I dunno, maybe because it's private you are not actually having such a good service as you could be - I know we think private has the best of everything but ds has been to both and I think he has had far better in state, in terms of professionalism of the teachers and the ease with which they've been able to 'use' the system to help.

there was a boy in ds' class whose behaviour sounds exactly the same as your ds; in fact, worse - he would head-but and bite. He has had extra support and the ed psych and basically, the school has hunkered down and DEALT with him, given him the time to learn, etc.

Your ds is so, so young. There is a big part of me that thinks his behaviour (as described in the OP) is not GOOD but blimey, not that bad either!

I don't mean to say you've got no problems, clearly there are, but....dealable with, I'm sure. Have you been happy with the teacher's ideas so far? What has been done in the way of support in the classroom for him?

Cariboo my first question has to be
What is his diet like?
What measures do you use at home for discipline?
Has he got any siblings?
Could he be being bullied?

Very situation.

Yes he's very young & suffered more than many (but not all!!) his age already. Do you remember me posting about him about 2 yrs ago when he was in a body cast? I would keep him at home but he'd drive me batty, tbh! I need to shore up the family income by finding a job pretty soon, too.

Unlike dd(7 & v. bossy), who eats like a sparrow, ds loves his food. He's not overweight & I avoid giving the dc junk food on principle but he does love his choccy especially. dh says it makes him worse but ds the same with or without choccy.

The best discipline I've found so far is the chart. Both he & dd get a cross for bad behavior - they get a warning 1st - & a smiley for an especially good deed like sharing without being asked, etc. We tried the "up to your room" punishment, doesn't work unless you could lock them in (NOT an option!), tried the "naughty step" but that doesn't work because one of us (me! dh hasn't the patience) has to sit there with an egg-timer, suspend all activities & conversation with anyone else & look stern, tried confiscating toys, forbidding tv but ds not too bothered about tv & finds another toy to play with if the current favourite is taken away. This has all been going on since October & I am exhausted.

Sorry, I just read you have a dd.
My gut instinct tells me that this is probably a jealousy issue, not wanting to share significant adults i.e. you and dh and the teacher who he appears to be attached to.

What I will say is that I looked after a little boy of similar age. He was attention seeking from mum (middle child), had a poor diet with lots of processed food, minimal veg and fruit, lots of squash and very little discipline. When he was admitted to hospital for an allergy test he was given strict boundries and this was totally effective. We had to do this because he refused the soya milk for the test so we couldn't do it without addressing the poor behaviour. He had been labelled as ADHD. By the end of the week he was trying new foods such as carrots, sweetcorn, fruit etc and his behaviour radically improved.
The diagnosis was lifted as he was fully able to concentrate on games and take turns even playing again after loosing- certainly not the behaviour of a child with ADHD.

Sorry its so long but the point I want to make is look at other reasons for the behaviour before getting a label.
Labels of ADHD etc can affect a childs education for life if wrong. They can get put into lower academic sets who have lower expectations leading them to not fulfil their potential.

I can see why time out didn't work. For it to be effective you have to remove them out of sight somewhere boring with no conversation or eye contact. By you sitting there it has reinforced his behaviour because he has what he wanted, your undivided attention.

Oh. What a dope I am! but if I remove him, he screams & screams, throws things & runs out into the hallway, scuttling back down the stairs.

Definitely get a referral to a paediatrican from your GP. Get the teacher to write a short note to back you up as some GP's put up a fight.

Avoid the ed psych until you know what is going on. They can do therapies but aren't the place to go for a dx. DS1 has AS and the school don't even want to refer him to an ed psych unless absolutely necessary as they say there isn't much she can do. (DS does get the support he needs from the SALT or OT so it isn't an issue)

I sit my 2yo in the hallway with the door shut, ignore the throwing (remove dangerous objects). Once he realises that throwing things gets no attention it will stop ( may take several time out/ days). Just put there for as long as it takes to calm him. When you put him in there tell him he can come out when calm, this gives incentive for him to calm quickly. Getting the impression that inconsistency is a problem.

Yes, inconsistency is a huge problem. With dh especially.

I found this book very useful www.amazon.co.uk/That-Child-Dyspraxia-Tourettes-Childhood/dp/0753510642

The programme that they run is very good. It costs us £55 per session but our DS has benefited.

I hope this may help you.