Okay I know about / practice postive parenting, am consistent etc - but still cant control my 2 year old. What now?

[handlemecarefully]

Picture the scene - had booked baby into creche at gym for 1 hour to take 2.3 year old swimming.

The first 15 minutes of the hour are frittered away whilst dd climbs into lockers, hides her swimsuit etc (its not that she doesn't like swimming, she does...)and generally procrastinates about getting ready for the pool. Am cool about this - whats the point in getting het up?

Anyway we make it to the pool, have a half hour dip and get out with 15 minutes to spare before we are due to collect baby from the creche. We are out of the shower in 5 leaving 10 mins to get dried and dress. DD then decides to be her most uncooperative - starts to tantrum over taking off her swimming nappy and putting a regular nappy on. Manage to wrestle her regular nappy onto her, then she runs off. Attempt to persuade her to get dressed - she's not having it. Soon there is only 1 minute to go before we are due to pick up ds ...the 'textbook' says to ignore bad behaviour - but I don't have the luxury of time for this. I can't just sit it out until she is ready to get dressed - I need to be somewhere and its not optional. I attempt to wrestle on her jeans but she really is very strong and its impossible. Am loosing it and really scream at her, then finally say "Fine, I'm going with or without you" and stomp off carrying her clothes forcing dd to follow me just wearing a nappy. This is not well received by dd, tantrum reaches fever pitch - she half staggers after me and we have to leave the ladies changing room to traverse a public corridor, whilst all the time she is just wearing a nappy. Takes her at least 20 minutes to settle down, and I have to enlist the help of the Nursery nurses at the creche...

My point is (sorry its so long winded) but ignoring bad behaviour is all well and good, but its not a workable strategy in that situation. I was obliged to pick up ds by 13.00 and couldn't just sit it out and wait for dd to tire of her 'game'....I didn't really have time for 'Time out' either. What would have worked in that scenario ?

(Incidentally, I practise positive parenting with lots of praise for good behaviour etc....)

my babe is only one, so not quite there yet. but three things

1. dont stress about it happening in public - other parent will understand, and anyone who doesnt can off
2. always read loads about diet, tiredness and tantrums - e nos, etc and overtired kids more likely to freak out = just ideas - not suggesting you stuff you babies with chemicals!
3. friend with nightmare two year old is just cming through it with time out she sewra by it and there is light at end of tunnel good luck xxx

oh HMC
tell me about it
Many sypmathies to you, sounds like you did the best under the circumstances.

That's just the point isn't it? When you have two of them you can't just sit down and go 'tra la la la, darling, we'll get dressed when you are ready to behave'

I find myself having to do evil jekyl and hyde mummy every day over 3 and a half year old because 13 mo baby is about to put hand up drainpipe and in to spider's nest or wailing for his bottle or putting we finger in to wall socket, so I have to deal with older one as quickly as possible and this always seems to be by being scary or threatening.

I can't bear it, and the worst thing is he is reflecting my control techiniques by being bossy and stroppy and yelling with me and it horrifies me that he is absorbing this nasty behaviour (of mine)

So a bit of a highjack and no advice but I was wondering if the old STAR-CHART with rewards or denials at the end actually work?

anyone know, would this help me and HMC?

I think I would have done the same thing as you.

Short of physically resraining her to get her dressed there was no choice.

Wrap her in a towel and march to creche ignoring the screams as best you can.Complete nightmare but she came to no harm and she atleast had her nappy on.

god the joys of parenthood..you'll laugh about this when she's older!

I agree - you did about all you could have done in the situation.

She sounds like my 2.5 year old. She just likes to be argumentative and difficult for no reason other than maybe it's fun and she might get a reaction. And you're absolutely right that although under the right circumstances the best thing is to ignore it, that's not always practical especially with another child.

I think you did exactly the right thing and all we can both do is to wait for this phase to be over.

I always found my dd's tired after swimming and very hungry. If yours is hungry, what about offering her a banana 'when you're dressed'?

I agree with Avalon- I've always been hungry straight after swimming- maybe that's the problem there-

been there done that .. the trick is to NEVER doing anything that has a time constraint with a 2 year old .. take a deep breath and a large vodka and mutter "this too will pass, this too will pass"

Also even though it seems it, there's no way a 2 year old is stronger than you .. if you lay them over your lap and tip them so their heads are backwards you can invariably manhandle them into trousers

finally ... there's a woman at our swimming lessons who has these fantastic towel ponchos with hoods and sleeves that you can just throw over their heads

at least your 2 year old is perfectly normal HMB

i agree, and you sound just like my dh!

fwiw, if you ever do try a repeat swimming experience, I find taking bar of chocolate has transformed our post-swim changing room experience. I give a line of chocolate while I get dressed - they sit as quiet as mice! then I give chunks while I'm getting them dressed & don't get them to do anything other than lift leg, push arm in etc (at home they normally dress themselves, but wouldn't get them to do this after swim they're too tired.

It used to be very stressful - similar to your experience, without the added stress of the baby pick up! now it's quick easy & painless. all for a bar of chocolate

sounds like you had a really stressful experience & what more can you do. I agree, positive parenting is great, but there are times when there's no other option but to physically (obviously not hurting, ykwim i'm sure0 interven. we can't be mary poppins all the time! I think you did fine

Similar problem to HMC. DS is 2.5 and usually well-behaved. I ignore bad behaviour and praise good and it works. BUT the one time he knows he can make a scene is running off. You have no choice but to chase after him - oh what fun. He thinks it's hilarious, I try to stay calm and unreactive whilst catching him. Suggestions?

Could you take something like an older child's thick baggy sweater that would be like a loose dress on her, and just slip it over her head, instead of dressing her properly? Wellie boots to plonk her into? You'd still have to do the nappy I know. I'm assuming you're going home by car!

Hmm- sounds horrid, HMC. Poor you- public tantrums are the pits, especially if you're stressed because in a hurry! No advice really- I think you did fine. The chocolate/banana ideas sound good though. I think the real hard thing is avoiding getting emotionally pulled into tantrums- that's when I feel that my usual strategies are useless and start shouting. Actually the usual strategies work well but I'm too stressed at that moment to put them into practice. A bit of calming visualisation is supposed to be a good way to avoid this scenario but I haven't perfected that yet and mine are 5!

I think star charts can be good for many kids of 3+, Suzy Wong. Personally, I usually use them intermittently as fairly straight-forward bribery for very specific stuff that is driving me batty- eg: J refusing to put socks on in less than 30 mins, D spending the first hour of bedtime bouncing in and out of bed like a tiny and determined maniac, etc. A week of stars equals a trip to the best shop in the known universe (Woolworths). But I've heard good reports from others who've used them as all day general behaviour monitors and put stars/smiley faces/sad faces in every fifteen minutes or so as well. This has an element of bribery too, obviously- small gifts reward a smiley faced day- but also provides an opportunity for both parent and child to notice all the good stuff that's happening, which can make things feel a whole lot better sometimes. Children are surprisingly reluctant to see their rows of smiley faces sullied with a sad face, IME, so it can all be heart-warmingly effective one way and another. You do have to be very clear about what behaviour gets a smiley face by praising like mad though, and the whole thing takes a fair amount of supervision, so can be hard work. But definitely worth a go as a short-term, behaviour turning-around measure when the chips are slightly down, I'd say.

My ds is much more likely to be uncooperative when tired/thirsty/hungry so really agree with those who suggest snacks and drinks for straight after swimming. Also, grabbing your half dressed child and going to creche is ignoring bad behaviour. Ignoring doesn't mean sitting quietly IMO, it just means gettting on with what you are doing/what needs to be done and ignoring unreasonable protests. Ie if a two year old is crying/shouting because they don't want to go into the bath, and you've given fair warning etc, then IMO ignoring can mean simply picking them up, saying calmly, "You are going to have a bath now" and carrying them upstairs to the bath. Same with after swimming.

good point re ignoring, aloha.

What I mean is, I think it means ignoring the behaviour rather than the child, if that makes sense.

It does make sense.

Agree with a lot of the points on here. My kids are 5, 3 and 1 and for a long time I refused to "bribe" them as I thought they should do things when I asked without having to reward them. I've now relaxed a great deal (fed up of shouting) and we've adopted the pasta jar system (described elsewhere on the site) which is working very well.

Agree with Aloha re ignoring not necessarily being passive on your part. My school and nursery drop-offs are in two different places so we go by car. Dd2 HATES going in her car seat and pushchair at the moment (arches back and screams) but, again, I do not have the time to "sit it out". So I avoid shouting and eye contact and strap her into the seat without saying anything. I think the key to it is not to resort to shouting - if I end up shouting at them, I know the situation will just escalate.

In your situation (on a good day for me, obviously) I would have given her the opportunity to get dressed properly (the "nice" way) then if she refused, either bundle her into her clothes (without speaking or looking at her) or wrapped her in her towel and gone to the creche (again without looking or speaking), so I think your approach was just fine .

...and then make a fuss of them when they do calm down (positive, positive, tra la la).

The one thing that ALWAYS, without fail, will make my dd (who's generally very good so far) rebel is a time constraint. So I avoid them wherever possible and allow way more time to do things than is necessary and we're still always late. Though as you say sometimes you just can't be late. Distraction like a snack or drink or involving them in the activity in a way that makes them feel like they're the boss I think helps. For instance if I want to get dd out of the house and she keeps finding 'interesting' things to do instead and I sit down and say 'oh, silly mummy, I can't find your shoes. Oh dear, we can't go out without shoes ...' she miraculously stops the 'interesting' thing and goes to find her shoes to show how much less silly she is than mummy and I act all surprised and pleased and say 'oh well done, let's put them on now' and she's so pleased with herself she forgets to protest. There's nothing like a massaged ego to get a toddler co-operating .

Youknow what I am finding though, with my 2.5 yr old ds? When I manage to keep my cool with him, he just keeps on and on pushing to try to really p* me off. Tonight he swept all his fuzzy felt on to the floor (to which I suggested we tidy it up together) then threw his spoon at his sister's milk cup (yes, you guessed it, Jackpot) then got down and started pushing all the chairs around the kitchen. When he sees he's getting no reaction he stops and looks for something else to do. The final straw was when I took him up to his bath (having not eaten - I gave him so many chances) and he threw his pyjamas into the water. He WANTS me to lose my cool. I am really struggling...

just reading that list of wind ups has p*ed me off tearful! No ideas, sorry, I'd probably yell 'are you trying to wind me up, well you've succeeded' & chuck him in his room, then kick myself big time I let him

Well not meaning to put a 'downer' on all of this, but my DS who is 3.2 is still going through phases of this even now, after just under 2 years of it, you thought he would have given up by now! Everytime we have to resort back to star charts, which does seem to clear it all up. But a few months later, he's off again.

Tearful - I often say, I don't know why they have to push you to you getting upset and it won't stop til you do, sort of thing. It's so bloody hard not to shout back, but yes that does seems to be their goal.

Oh, sorry another 'tip' I use is to count to 3 slowly and if they haven't put shoes on, got in the car etc you do it for them, they soon learn that you mean business. Amazing though how DS will wait for 2 gap, before scrambling to do it just before I say 3!

tearful, I just read a book called 'The emotional life of the toddler' which was a real eye-opener to me. One of the things it said was that very small children 'need' at a certain time(s) each day to let off steam and are incapable of behaving well all day. I think your ds is trying to wind you up so that he has a reason to let rip himself. Reading that book has made me realise that by trying to be 'perfect' i.e. patient and never raise my voice I am actually suppressing a very natural set of emotions my dd (and me) need to express so now when she pisses me off I tell her I'm getting very cross and we even have a little yell at each other which often ends in hysterical laughter. It makes me feel better too. We're not saints and these little darlings can push us to the limit especially when tired, menstrual, under the weather etc. I'm all for positive parenting but I'm also for being an expressive human being.

Can I also add that I found the book 'How to talk so kids listen...' (Faber/Mazlich) really helpful and empowering when DS suddenly developed 'terrible threes'. I knew his strops are an inevitable part of separating from me and if he didn't throw tantrums/become uncooperative from time to time, that wouldn't be normal, but that still didn't make them any easier to deal with when he was stood stock still in the middle of a busy high street, refusing to move and screaming the place down! The book helped me sort out what might really be going on and made me feel like a much better mum when I was feeling crap and useless. So, Tearful and Handlemecarefully, hope things improve for you soon.

If HMC had started her post with
"I practise positive parenting with lots of praise for good behaviour etc" I think I wouldn't have read another word, "Oh no, yet another member of the Perfect Mother's Club!"
Which is why it was so refreshing & amusing to read about the strop, first.
Sorry, HMC, I know you want support... all I think is that toddler's don't have any sense of deadlines or time, I have to snarl at my lot, leaving the baby to cry, just to get them out the door in time for school sometimes, too. I mostly coax the 3yo with a mixture of bribes & compromises. We have a star chart to coax the oldest one to get himself dressed in the morning. He gets to cash in his stars by buying toys, but even that's only half-effective.