my kids have no respect for property. how do i drum it into them?

[gringottsgoblin]

ds has just poked a hole in the wall because the plaster was a bit crumbly. wouldnt be the end of the world if it was the only occasion but both him and his brother (7 & 8) regularly break stuff because they either cant be bothered to be more careful or because they actually try to destroy it.

i dont know what else to do. we have banned sweets, tv, confiscated toys, thrown or given toys away, stopped pocket money and everything else i can think of. it hasnt worked, they just dont care. we have had reward charts but i cant give them stickers because they havent destroyed something, thats just silly.

so what do i do? he is in his room cos i couldnt think how to deal with it off the top of my head without repeating stuff that hasnt worked

sticker charts dont work for everyone, but they do work for some!!!!

As parents, we tend to get stuck in punishment mode, punishing bad behaviour, ignoring good. When you kid is sitting there quietly doing something constructive, we tend to ignore them. When they are running aroundly wildly we take notice. So they get more attention for behaving badly.

Sticker charts are suppose to break the cycle and make you notice good behaviour and reward it.

So if your kid has really made a effort and managed to get a sticker, then next day is a totally disaster and you remove the sticker from the day before, they think whats the point of behaving well, as all you have noticed is the bad behaviour again.

If your going to use sticker charts, you get a sticker for good behaviour and you deal with bad behaviour seperately.

It that makes sense!!!

he is 7 trinity, it would take months for him to pay for it out of pocket money and he doesnt know how to plaster a wall. if he helped fix it he would get some lovely one on one time with dh and would not realise that actually dh doesnt want to be fixing a wall which didnt need it unless dh was really mean to him which doesnt sound like much fun.

messy play stuff is out of reach but they only have to say and i pass it down to them. they do like it, but not enough to put it back in the pots so it tends to go hard if they are left unsupervised anyway (suppose thats also about respect for stuff)

i suppose sticker charts have worked in that i do notice good behaviour and i always mention it when i tuck them up in bed and frequently through the day. they love getting the praise, it just doesnt remind them to stop wrecking things. the problem with not taking stickers is that unless the sticker means something (like pocket money) they are not that interested. so once they have enough stickers for what they want they dont have to make an effort anymore and i have to give them the stuff after bad behaviour or there is no point to the sticker chart anyway. and i dont like giving them stuff if they behave badly.

Presumably your youngest two children are really quite young if these two are that age. Is it jealousy of the time you and your DH have to spend sorting out the youngest two perhaps?

You say your DSs would find plastering the wall with your DH fun - well how about some 1:1 time with your DH doing something that really is fun (mechano or building something in the garden) as a treat on a chart or pasta jar. You could let it run for two weeks and if they haven't been destructive then an hour each with him. I know it is difficult to find time to do things 1:1 but might save time in the long term.

"i have tried ranting at them so often. i think they might be starting to become desensitized to it hey have heard it so much"

It's hard not to rant when things like this happen but less is definitely more in a situation like this. Try to save the ranting for mumsnet! As law3 says, you have to be matter of fact about it.

Law3, interesting what you say about the message taking stickers away could send out. I've not taken stickers away but we do have a pasta jar. Do you think that removing pasta has the same effect?

Threatening to remove pasta is extremely effective with DS and I think that's because it is 'hard earned' whereas he doesn't seem to care about having toys taken away.

Crikey, EscapeFrom, I think that's spiteful (breaking toys). Would also backfire with my own DS (almost 8). He'd end up with the strong message that it's ok to break their things just because you're X with someone.

I've No farking solutions to sugest, grinGG. Boys just don't THINK, I reckon. We do get much better behaviour with our lot using divide and conquer, literally separate out siblings as much as possible.

Why not do a daily reward at the end of the day that they will appreciate? (this way they are not saving for a reward, being naughty, then getting reward - which understandably you are not keen on). I would cut out pocket money, and sweets (esp after school - take a banana or something in your bag and if they are starved they will eat it). Then as they are the oldest they could maybe have a nice supper while little ones are in bed (maybe hot choc and biccies, flavoured milk, etc), so they get to saty up a little longer than the little ones and get something nice. If they have broken something/been naughty that day, no treat supper, and bed (lights off) at same time as littlies. Would this work maybe?

DP gives his older sons long explanations and you can see them switching off and their eyes glazingover - they don't have the attention span. I am gonna get him that how to talk book.

otherside - I feel if its been earned, you cant then take it away. Good and bad behaviour are seperate.

When i did use charts, i first worked out what were 'rights' and what were 'privelleges'. Privelleges to me are ps2, computer, tv, friends round, sleep overs, outings, deserts, hobbies etc, etc.

I then decided what behaviour i was going to ignore. I used a point system, ie tidying your room, 3 points, doing homework 3 points, not swearing 3 points, etc, etc.

The first reward was low points and easy to get, say a desert. Next reward was a bit harder and more points say stay up 15 minutes later, more points for 1 hour on computer. If at the end of the week they had managed to get a certain amount of points we would have a trip to the cinema or something.

Basically you have to earn your privelleges.
Your not taking anything away, they just havent earned it.

ps. that way they are being rewarded for good behaviour, every day and being rewarded.

The mistake some people make with charts is to give kids extra rewards on top of the privelleges they already get.

That's a really good point law3, our kids have so many priviledges don't they! I think I will implement your points system when ds is older. I like to be organised (like the points and knowing what you will ignore etc) so it sounds just my cup of tea.

gringotts, I know 7 yr olds can't pay for thattype of thing or plaster a wall, but he can lose two week's money and help with the job. You seem to think this should be unpleasant for him, make him feel bad, but actually what he needs is to feel good about himself. 1 to 1 time is exactly what he needs, however much your dh might dislike doing the plastering. And, if I were 7 and discovered a really interesting hole, and I could poke it and see how the wall was made, I would carry on - it's a bit like picking a scab for them , just too interesting to stop!

The best reward for the behaviour you like isn't a sticker or a treat or more computer time, it is you - your time, your attention. I only have three under six so God knows what it is like with four, but I know I do it - think, 'oh good, they're playing nicely, I can do xyz' when in fact I should forget the washing up and get down and join them. And things are so much better when I do. I've accepted that small people like to make the house look like a tip, and I've accepted that small people have to help tidy up at the end of the day. You said your boys like praise, that comes from you and dh, you are the ones who make them feel good, not a material reward. Dd1's school do stickers and cubes in a jar and dd1 isn't remotely bothered about it b/c she doesn't need them to feel good about herself and so try her best or behave well. When you praise them, do you say that they have been good, or do you go for specifics, like how they helped or had fun playing football or shared?

kay - worked wonders for my now 11 and 13 year old, dont need to use it anymore, its just habit, they come home do homework, tidy room etc before they go on computer etc.

Grin - They are doing this because they gain something. You may feel that there is absolutely no gain that could be got from this. The very fact that the behaviour is happening means it must be paying off - otherwise they wouldnt do it.

With most kids its the attention, when they behave well, we ignore them and get on with the hoovering or whatever. When they behave badly we have to take notice.

Yes, but you don't need stickers to notice, do you?

Or maybe by 11 it's too late for time with mum to be a good reward and it has to be something external?

start - dont want to get into an arguement, just trying to give grin some advice based on my experiences, there is no wrong or right way to do this, just whatever works for you!!!

As i said before charts are a way of breaking the cycle and getting out of punishment mode.

Never too old or too late!!i often spend time with my 11 and 13 year old, cuddling up or just chatting. I would view this as a 'right' rather than a 'privellege'

I don't really do priviledges, or treats for 'good' behaviour. The dcs get time with me when things go well; when things don't go well, it is a sign they need more of me.

It's great that stickers worked for you and I can see that if you have got into abad situation they might work short-term to break the cycle. But grin's boys seem to have worked out how to get the system to work for them and aren't that motivated by them. I used stickers once, when dd1 was potty training so she could see her progress, I'm training dd2 and she doesn't give a stuff about stickers.

I just think building a child's self-esteem is important, and having a realistic idea of what is normal behaviour.

But, I am glad you have amore harmonious household.

startouched, I totally agree with you.

I think smashing up a toy in retaliation is a really negative way of dealing with this, so I'm glad to hear you wouldn't be comfortable with it gringotts. Adults sometimes think kids take a good lesson from that sort of thing "Oh, that's what it feels like for mum when I dig a hole in her wall" but they don't, at all. They just feel bad because an adult has done a nasty thing. Your ds didn't do the hole in the wall to be deliberately nasty; just because he's a kid! Doing it back is not giving them the lesson you want them to have, at all.

I agree that one to one attention is what will keep them out of trouble. And yes, that's bloody hard when you've got four; I think perhaps you need to go easy on yourself in that respect. You CANNOT be in four places at once; however, kids ARE kids and WILL do stuff when not being given attention. You might need to accept that stuff happens in a house with four kids, more than it would in a house where there's only one.

And I would never, ever worry about giving them attention as in "but he's enjoy the one to one time with dh plastering the wall" - GREAT! let them do it and enjoy it. Positive attention and the effects it has on a child, is never wasted time or attention. The effects of it carry on. I think trust your ds that they won't be thinking "HA! I just do naughty things and dad spends time with me". I don't believe most kids are that manipulative; he will just live in the moment and enjoy the attention.

I think too as kids get older maybe it's time to ditch the sticker charts. Notice good behaviour and reward it by telling them you've noticed etc; I personally think this is great for a real, deep 'friendship' type relationship rather than an 'us and them' 'the rewards are in my gift' type thing. And verbal praise and attention can't be taken away, so it's a positive thing all round I think.

Law3, thanks for responding on that. I can see why you believe pasta jar , stickers are not changing anything for gringottsgoblin.

Our pasta jar is specifically for DS getting getting dressed, brushing teeth etc on request. (He is sooo distracted!). If he does it straight away he gets pasta, if he does it after a few requests he doesn't get pasta. If he mucks around (hiding under the bed etc) then pasta is removed. The threat of removing pasta is extrememy effective (unless he is overtired) so I think I'll stick to this.

For other good behaviour I am praising as described in 'how to talk' book and you just see his face light up. Have you got the book Gringottsgoblin?

Thank you, Honoria, I totally agree with your post.

Think of it like this. Suppose I say something to upset my dh, so I do something to put it right - cook his favourite meal, for example. I feel terrible until I have made things better - and until he has accepted that I want to make things better. That is how dcs feel. Your ds has upset you b/c of the hole in the wall. Let him put it right and build himself up.

Where we ar elucky is in having a kictchen big enoug hso we can have a table in it - the dds can spend time with me when I am cooking - not 1 to 1 but better than nothing.

Start - my 3.6 year old, couldnt give a toss about stickers. So stickers dont work for him. He likes lots of praise and i use this, last night for example he spend the first night ever in his own bed, (yes 3.6 years of not a decent nights sleep for me!!!) When he came down this morning, oh im so pleased with you, you are such a big boy, pick up, big hug etc. A sticker wouldnt have a meant a thing to him.

If we want our childrens behaviour to change we have to work out what the kid is gaining from behaving like this and change it so an alternative good behaviour starts to pay out better. Children like to be noticed and being noticed for good behaviour is a very powerful reward.

I think we are coming from the same stand point!!!

helping to repair the wall - This would mean spending time with him - which is good.

But bad in as much as he may feel this is what he has to do to get the attention and if he goes around digging holes in walls, he will then get to spend time with his dad repairing them.

again, Startouched has put it brilliantly; it's not about a little child secretly thinking to itself "ha ha attention got by being bad again!". I think it's doing them the courtesy of us thinking that they have the same feelings as us "I know you'll want to make that hole right, dad will help you". Star is right, it will help self esteem to be able to make things right, DO things right, instead of just being 'the naughty boy'.

I personally think that's a really good consequence; to have to make things right. I would bet my bottom dollar that this boy wouldn't go round making holes all over the house just because he got some time with dad as a result.

Some of the best ways of dealing with adult offenders have this principle; 'restorative justice'. It works because people have to acknowledge the damage they have done and make it good.

Hi Honoria, i think we are all coming from the same stand point, just putting it differently.

Kis dont actually think 'right im going to destroy my toys, make holes in the wall, to get attention' or im going to have a tantrum to get attention, but the end result is they have gained attention and it has paid off.

Taking notice of children and giving them your attention is a very powerful reward and is what most children want. So by him spending time with dad repairing the wall, he has gained attention by making the hole in the first place and is being rewarded.

Im all for rewarding the good, ignoring the bad!!!!

It's just the way you think about it though LAw. I don't think a child spending time with their dad is being rewarded; time with a parent is a right.

What the child is doing is being the given the opportunity to learn that when you do damage, you need to work to make it good again.

Honoria - totally agree a child spending time with their parents, is a right and helping around the house etc is a great way to involve kids and spend time with them.

If the op ds is being descrutive to gain attention and he is then being given attention, would that not reinforce the behaviour??

Same as a temper tantrum, i will scream to gain attention, if you then take notice, they have gained attention and it has paid off. So that reinforces the behaviour??

Im not claiming to be an expert or right, here to learn, like everyone else!!!

hmm, I see what you are saying Law and I suppose we're getting onto real subtleties now, but I still think it's about TRUSTING the child more. They are not digging that hole in the wall to gain attention; there's no manipulation there, in my view. It's just stuff they do when unsupervised. No connection will be made in their minds between digging the hole and getting attention.

BECAUSE there's no manipulation in their motivation, there's no harm in them being helped to put it right by spending a bit of time with their dad. The only connection they will make is the positive one of having to make right the damage they made. If that's the way you think about it, then they're not being rewarded and the behaviour is not being re-inforced, IMHO! As you say, we're all learning and I'm not saying I'm right here, this is just my view and what my approach would be.