Can your three year old.....?

[aloha]

Take off their clothes and/or put them on? ie Put on their own shoes? Put on a coat? Pull their trousers down? Ride a scooter? Catch a ball? Brush their teeth? Climb into their own car seat? Get onto the toilet? Make a sandcastle? Use a knife and fork? Walk upstairs like we do (ie not on all fours or by literally hauling himself up one step at a time by pulling on the bannister) and come downstairs facing forwards without holding on.
I ask because ds, who was three last week, cannot do any of the above. The idiot HV seems to think this is perfectly normal, but from the three year olds I see, I don't think it is. I'm honestly not just asking for people to post with equally incompetent just-threes, but wondered what the consensus was.
As for toilet-training, don't go there! I don't think he has any idea he is going to wee at all.

aloha
ds2 also loves stories and will read in a concentrated way. Will play for long time with train track and does jigsaws over and over - he used to find them really hard and practises and practises until he can do them, until he knows them by heart. So he doesn't really flit from activity to activity, but when he is doing an activity he doesn't always complete it before he starts again. So he might do nearly the whole jigsaw and then pull it to bits before he's put the last piece in.

I agree with everyone who says should get him assessed if you are worried. Having said that we have been seen so far by paed, OT, PT, SALT, portage, preschool learning service, clinical pyschologist and area SENCO. All agree that ds2 has problems of some sort. But so far the only therapy we have received or been offered is music therapy and a bit of portage. I keep getting told that I am doing such a good job as it is that he really wouldn't do any better with any more help. I'd be flattered if I wasn't suspicious .

I really hope you don't take this in the wrong way...
But I find comparisons of children at similar ages aren't really very helpful(even the books such as 'What to expect...'qualify themselves.)

For example - my dd is now 5, well, in her class some can read very well, others can't read at all, some dress themselves after PE,and others struggle, some are athletic, some are not.. some are very outgoing, others shy.

I would say since I have had ds,(number 2) I have become less concerned about supposed 'milestones', because at the end of the day children, like adults, are all very different.

Obviously get your concerns checked out... but hopefully, you will find that your HV is just possibly right (after all she should have more experience with kids developmental stages than you?)

Also by the time number 2 is around I bet your ds will be able to do all of those things you were worried about + more (but you won't have time to notice!!!)

You're right unicorn. But sometimes delays mean that there is a problem. We had so many people tell us when dd1 was a baby that there was nothing to worry about, they all develop at their own pace etc., and I was determined not to be a neurotic mum, so by the time we did mention it to her pediatrician it was quite obvious that there was a problem. You have to trust your instincts quite a bit.

Music therapy Saker??? Where??? DS1 has always loved music but has suddenly become obsessed and drags everyone to the piano (I'm the only one who can play the piano- and I'm crap- grade 3) so I've been thinking I would love to get him some music therapy.

Unicorn HV are notoriously bad at spotting things like dyspraxia. I don't know a single person whose health visitor has managed to pick up autism when a parent has apprached them with concerns- although its usually far more obvious than something like dyspraxia. Not knocking HV though as mine is great and did her best to refer ds2 on with his speech problems (just a pity there weren't any SALTs to refer him to!)

Aloha you have been pondering this for a while now- think its defintiely worth checking out now before number 2 - if only because its heck of a lot easier to attend an assessment with only one child......

Music therapy is offered at our local CDC in Cambridge; would you believe - they were actually short of children so I volunteered ds2 as I thought it couldn't do any harm. I don't think the therapist thinks ds2 is particularly suitable because he is not "stirred" enough by music but we are giving him a go and he is starting to enjoy it now he has got past the idea that only nasty things happen to him at the CDC .

However I am sure your ds1 would be really suitable from what you have said but I don't suppose your CDC offers it and then you would have to get him to go in first....

The Association of Music Therapists is supposed to provide a list of practising music therapists:
apmt .

Thanks for the link Saker! Our CDC doesn't provide SALT let alone music therapy And yes I think the gentle sound of screaming and clawing at the door could shatter the peace even if they did

Aloha, I have met your ds and he struck me as a total normal, if not slightly genius child. I really wouldn't worry, children develop at different ages and with different things. I remember the first time I met your ds he was just 2 (i think) and I was totally impressed at how many letter/numbers he recognized and got very worried for a week or so that my ds who was a whole year older couldn't recognize any. In fact, my ds who is now almost 4, still can't. But he can climb a ladder and work a power drill (the real kind, not a toy one)...can you guess daddy's a builder. And then dd didn't start walking until 18 mo., but was talking in full sentences from 12 mo. My cousin's ds was verbally very advanced and reading before 5, but at 7 still isn't toilet trained at night. I really don't think you should worry. And if he isn't ready to be toilet trained, just leave it...he's probably composing the next great literary masterpiece.
Why don't you try a childminder instead of nursery. It's a little less overwhelming and more intimate, but still has other children and structure.

Aloha I have not read all this but what I do want to say is that you should go with yr instincts that something is not quite right (as others have said).

I know a lot of people (meaning well of course) will say "oh yes, he's fine" etc etc but I know too many egs of people who have been told that and then there really is a problem...a colleague had a very late walker and was told oh well, he'll get there, but he really does have some problems (not saying this about yr DS, 14mo to walk is fine isn't it). Also my ds1 has seen SALT re his late development of certian sounds; last yr (he was 4) it was, no he's where he shd be, etc; this yr it's yes, he should be able to say "c" now, he needs some SALT (and my reaction was actually, thank goodness!)

Anyway (ramble ramble); my DD who was 3 in June can do most of the things on yr list. Have been working this summer on getting her to dress herself, she can do it and now will (socks are tricky) and even her zip on her coat. Also we were practising catching a ball and she can do that too (better than DS1 in fact). She doesn't brush her teeth very well or use a knife but is fine with loo and car seat.

TBH I was most concerned re your DS's jumping or lack of; DS1 was a late walker but certainly jumping by 3, DD also late jumper but yes, by 3 she cd do it.

Good advice as ever from Jimjams here also soapbox and saker, sounds to me as tho you are going the right way to take some action. He soudns like a lovely boy tho and as you say you can be very grateful for that.

aloha, just quickly read this. I'd go with your instincts, too. It could be any number of things (someone suggested low muscle tone, for instance) or it could be nothing, and in a couple of years you'll think he is not that physical a child buthe has no problems. I think you are wise to go to the gp now to get a referral.

looking back, (always diffucult as things blurr) I'd say my very lively, climb on anything youngest son wasn't potty trained till just 3 (about the same time as marina's son). He could undress himself but couldn't dress himself. He's 5 now and still I nearly always dress him, even pull up trousers and t shirts. I think he could if he wanted, but never does. At three years old he wouldn't have been able to put on his own shoes confidently - still not keen on doing it now, but he can.

He can use a fork and knife, but not well and much prefers a spoon or me feeding him (!). At three years old he was not keen on walking with me, holding my hand. He'd do it if he wanted to but mostly ran all over the place or wanted to be carried. I only stopped giving him lots of piggy backs six months ago.

Yet he was a very confident stair climber, jumper and bike rider at 3 years old - notice I am listing all the fun things! It was the less fun things that he didn't want to learn as fast.

HTH

Just to respond to SofiaAmes post. It doesn't really matter what a child can do if they have problems, it's what they can't do that is the issue. Aged 2 my autistic son could recognise all his letters and numbers, sing songs in tune, could read a few words, knew all his shapes (including trapeziums), could recognise the symbols equals, divided by and times, but couldn't say yes or no (still can't age 5- although he's still good on trapeziums!), couldn't point to what he wanted, and couldn't walk and carry something at the same time. Lots of people told me he was fine though as he was obviously bright, anmd was thereofre concentrating on other things.

Always, always, always the mother is the best person to judge in these situations - especially if she has concerns- and so the fact that Aloha has had concerns for so long would be enough for me to say get it investigated. Dyspraxia isn't a huge problem if it recognised, but can cause all sorts of problems if it isn't. By 3 is should be possible to recognise fairly reliably. And early recognition is always better than later.

Aloha - DD is just 4 but I donlt think she could have done any of the things you have in your list a year ago - not at least properly without any help from me - she still takes ages eating with a knife and fork and as for the getting dressed it is a constant battle - took 30 minutes of me shouting at her this morning for her to actually get up and start getting dressed and even then it was painfully slow with 2 big shouting matches!!

I would say that your DS is perfectly normal.

My DD has been going to a co-ordination clinic where they have a joint session with a physio and OT. She's also had 2 SALT assessments and is supposed to be having some sessions now she's been discharged from the physio etc - her speech problems are mainly due to her tongue not moving correctly, which is now hugely improved thanks to the physio. She has low muscle tone and her joints are hypermobile which has made things harder for her. She had a brilliant reception teacher who has also given her loads of help. The progress that she has made since starting the clinic in March has been amazing and given her loads of confidence, she is much more willing to try new things and is generally much happier, it's lovely to watch her sitting at the table cutting things out (although she still needs to be reminded to hold the scissors the right way up !), sticking, drawing, writing her name etc, all the things that used to get her so fustrated before as she wanted to do them but couldn't. I feel much happier, that nagging doubt has finally gone away and I've been able to make simple changes to things that we do that make things so much easier for both of us.

As Jimjams said, Dyspraxia isn't a huge problem if recognised - I am certain that DH is dyspraxic, but when we were younger I don't think Dyspraxia had been recognised and he didn't receive any help - as a result I know he struggled through school and emerged at 18 with extremely low confidence and self-esteem. I really would urge you to go and see your GP and be prepared to push a bit (mine was not a lot of use, I went through the school to get referred, they couldn't have been more helpful)Hopefully he is absolutely fine and will suddenly do all the things that you are concerned about, but for your own peace of mind and to give him the best possible help if he does turn out to have dyspraxia or a slight motor skill delay, then I think the sooner he's seen by someone the better. I do take on board what people say that lots of 3 year olds can't do a lot of these things, but I'm totally with the "mother's instinct bit" and I remember a previous post by you on this over the last few months and think that you should follow your instinct on this. Good luck.

Aloha, I know from previous threads that you have had concerns about your son's development for some time. I wonder if it would help to 'talk' things over as our son sounds pretty similar to yours and has been diagnosed a few months ago but the diagnosis itself isn't straightforward also, I may be able to dig out the details of the paediatric neurologist who saw our son (I think she does NHS work at St Thomas' Hosp). If you are interested, then please CAT me.

Thank you everyone. It's been a very interesting thread for me (unsurprisingly!) and Sofia, thanks in particular for very kind words .
I found it so ironic that the HV said something about his speech as that's one thing I've never worried about for a minute. It's particularly when I see him with other children of his age or even younger that he seems different, so I think I'll persevere via the GP. It's hard to explain quite why I think he is 'out of synch' with other children on a message board. He's a bright boy, I am sure of that, but there is something different there and I would like to know if it has a name and if I can help. I feel very lucky that it's so relatively minor though - and he's been particularly charming today!

sis - I'll definitely contact you. Kittypickle, now scissors! That would be good!

Aloha- you can get all sorts of adapted scissors to make cutting easier. Can't remember where we got our from- either LDA or magic planet I think.

What's LDA, Jimjams? Heard of Magic Planet, they were supposed to be sending me a catalogue a while ago!

Chase magic planet up- maybe it went awol in the post- their catalogue is good. LDA is more schooly- I think they do a primary and special needs catalogue. Lots of teaching type stuff in there- magic planet is more interesting.

I think you are right to talk to the GP and try and get a referral. It might all come to nothing but it's best to be sure if you are uneasy. I will be interested to hear how you get on as we are in similar boats although my ds2 seems to have more problems with speech and communication than yours so I don't have any doubt that he is "out of synch" in some ways.
Good luck with it all aloha.

I too have met the very lovely Master Aloha, and he certainly can talk and think with the best! He can jump, too Aloha - he definitely had two feet off the floor when he was dancing. But, time and time again, we know that parents instincts are the finest screening device - so I think you should push for a more informed opinion than the HV can give. I'm not surprised that the HV wasn't concerned, because on the face of it, why would anyone worry about such a 'with it' child. But the list of DS-isms you cite would raise mild concerns if he was mine, and like you, the committment to giving him the right sort of support. Heaven help children whose parents don't know how to persist like Aloha is doing.

Aw Blu, very sweet. Almost as sweet as your ds tenderly holding my lad's hand to help him up a (none-too-challenging) slope!
How did the shoes thing go? And the hep jab? Have lost your number.

Aloha
My ds is 4 in november and a year ago could not do most of those things. He was terrible at walking up and down stairs and he couldn't even talk all that well. Now at 4 he can do all except catch a ball and use a knife.(properly anyway) He has even ecelld at speaking and have been told his vocabulary is as good as a 5yr old. He draws extremely well and can write his own name.
My hv was worried a year ago. Now she says there is no problem. Your ds sounds fine. They can make up so much in a year

Aloha - DD1 had just turned 3 and she has just begun taking off tops although she's been taking off and putting on trousers for a while. Don't know about the scooter bit as she's not been on one but has pushed herself along on a skateboard. She can put on her own shoes although would have trouble with the stiffness of a "doodle" buckle but velcro ones she's fine with on and off and she can do and undo belts. She's fine up and downstairs and can do teeth and catch a ball if thrown directly towards her gently. Generally i don't have any worries about her development but i think if i did my hv would react similar to yours as she's very wishy washy and quite non-committal on everything which is immensely frustrating. I'd change hv or go to doctors if you really have a concern. Try not to worry and good luck

Also, Aloha, in case there are people here with specialist advice - don't forget how dextrous he is. My DS certainly cannot place tiny stickers so carefully on the 'right' squares like your DS can. I've been thinking about this. Like you, I suspect that he could well have some little 'blockage',or hitch in his make-up, maybe around balance or co-ordination or understanding of locomotion or something akin to dyspraxia, (about which I know nothing). But that if this is the case it must be compounded by his easy-going sedentary-interests nature, which then could lead to a slight neglect of his muscle build-up which would then lead to a lack of physical confidence and enjoyment. Vicious circle. HVs do seem to look at kids from the lowest common denominator - and your DS's evident brightness and vocabulary and imaginitive skills probably act as a bit of a smokescreen.

I hope you don't have to bat the GP round the head TOO much to get a referral, and then you can get to the bottom of it once and for all.