Can your three year old.....?

[aloha]

Take off their clothes and/or put them on? ie Put on their own shoes? Put on a coat? Pull their trousers down? Ride a scooter? Catch a ball? Brush their teeth? Climb into their own car seat? Get onto the toilet? Make a sandcastle? Use a knife and fork? Walk upstairs like we do (ie not on all fours or by literally hauling himself up one step at a time by pulling on the bannister) and come downstairs facing forwards without holding on.
I ask because ds, who was three last week, cannot do any of the above. The idiot HV seems to think this is perfectly normal, but from the three year olds I see, I don't think it is. I'm honestly not just asking for people to post with equally incompetent just-threes, but wondered what the consensus was.
As for toilet-training, don't go there! I don't think he has any idea he is going to wee at all.

aloha, is he your first? I only ask because I see a trend of poor motor skills in both mine. In fact I dread next year as dd will start having lunch at school and goodness knows what the dinner ladies will think when they see her trying to eat with a knife and fork (both mine would rather eat with their hands!).

Ds can't cycle and dd can but is not keen at all. Neither of them can draw much either. However, both of them can talk the hind leg off a donkey. HVs were never concerned either but I would trust your instincts and follow it up if you are worried.

Dd2 could:- take clothes/shoes off (but not put on); attempt to clean teeth; climb into car seat; make a sandcastle; use knife and fork; could use toilet with a step.

Couldn't:- ride a scooter (and still can't ride a bike at 8yo); could only walk downstairs one step at a time until she was 6yo and needed to hold on; catch a ball.

It's all a blur with the first three, but ds2 can't do any of them.

Ds - 3 two weeks ago - has only just (today!) started using a knife. But he does already do all the others (although catch a ball obviously depends on how gently/accurately it's thrown). Clothes/shoes on (but not zips, etc) is fairly recent, but off has been happening for a long time. Riding a scooter and walking down stairs were both about 20-22 months, get onto toilet/into car seat about 30 months.

However he's always been really well balanced/co-ordinated (imagine a sort of cross between a monkey and spiderman!), so he's probably not a fair comparison. If you're worried - and apricularly if you/his father were better co-ordinated at that age, I'd ask your doctor for a referral to a developmental paediatrician.

aloha, unless there is something that you really feel isn't right, I would try not to worry - or compare (easier said i know).

Kids are all so different, and some are much better verbally than they are physically.. I'd imagine this could be the case with your ds?

You may be also trying (subconsciously)to make him 'grow up' because of the not so distant prospect of number 2?

Aloha I know you are concerned about dyspraxia- and from your list I'd say it is worth getting it looked at. Early signs combined with slow progression in motor skills. If you can afford to bypass the NHS a bit at the moment then I would- even if its just to see an OT and be given exercises. Somewhere like the dyscovery centre would be great if you could get there. Or I wonder if Madelaine Portwood does private assessments. If she did I would go to her. A private report can work wonders with getting somewhere with the NHS as well.

DS2 (2.9) can pedal, do stairs, jump, is a bit crap with fork etc, but tries (ds1 still can't use a knife and fork). Ds2 is better with a spoon than ds1 as well. Ds2 insisted on climbing into his own car seat today. No idea about sandcastles as ds1 won't let us go to the beach- actually thinking about it he does kind of make one in the sandpit. Toilet training is slow but a lot is him being contrary "no mummy I won't sit on potty mummy I wee in nappies mummy".

have you tired teaching him getting dressed etc by backward training. So to teach pulling up trousers-- pull them (almost) right up and leave him to do the last bit, once he's mastered that leave them on his thighs etc until he's doing it himself. We had to teach ds1 that way. if he is dyspraxic you'll find that teaching using backward chaining is the most effective way (we are doing it with shoes and socks at the moment for ds1- he's kind of getting there with the rest eventually).

DD1 can:
Dress and undress herself fairly competently with glitches IYKWIM
Put her shoes on - frequently on the wrong feet but she has the general idea and can sort of buckle them
Put on a coat
Pull her trousers up
Ride the sort of scooter you sit on, not stand on
Brush her teeth
Climb onto the loo
Walk upstairs

Think she can make a sandcastle
She can eat with a fork and spoon
Don't think she can catch a ball

She's a very fast walker.

As you know, I think it is worth getting your suspicions talked over with someone competent

dd is 3 and almost 1 month :-
Take off their clothes and/or put them on? ie Put on their own shoes? Yes to off but variable for on, shoes rarely but can do her sandals with velcro tabs easily
Put on a coat? Yes but not do it up and sleeves get tangled.
Pull their trousers down? Yes but now lazy about putting them back on !
Ride a scooter? sort of but not really tested
Catch a ball? Yes
Brush their teeth? yes
Climb into their own car seat? yes
Get onto the toilet? yes using high step (she's v small!!)
Make a sandcastle? Not sure
Use a knife and fork? Definitely not, fork is still very optional although I think she can, even my 6 yr old still struggles with a knife
Walk upstairs like we do (ie not on all fours or by literally hauling himself up one step at a time by pulling on the bannister) and come downstairs facing forwards without holding on. Yes, will jump down each step two footed.
She is toilet trained but prone to hiccups!

However ds, now 6, was later on many of these things but my memory is already vague. I don't want to alarm you unduly but he has subsequently been diagnosed with motor coordination issues which in retrospect make some sense of his preschool development and behaviour, and I sense that something similar is going through your mind. Did the HV just dismiss your concerns then? If you are worried about your ds then I'd agree that an assessment by a developmental paediatrician might be your next step although he could yet develop considerably in the next few months.

DS is 3 in November:

1. Take off clothes + shoes - yes

2. Put on clothes - tops yes, pants no, shoes not really

3. Put on a coat - only if I hold it for him.

4. Ride a tricycle - not really. Can push himself along on one of those sit-on things.

5. Catch a ball - No

6. Brush teeth - chews and eats the toothpaste, occasionally brushes

7. Climb into car seat - yes

8. Get onto toilet - yes with step

9. Use a knife and fork - spoon yes, fork a little, knife definitely not.

10. Walk upstairs and downstairs - yes but likes to be carried!

11. Make a sandcastle - no, but will dig holes/fill up things with sand

12. Toilet training - dry during the day but with probably 2 out of 3 days he has an accident. Dry at night about half-2/3 the time.

13. Walks with me - well, actually runs much faster than me if given half the chance - I'm 8mths pregnant! Will often go in the wrong direction or just refuse to walk and want to be carried. The body is able, the spirit is weak.

I'd say DS was about average for his age in terms of physical ability compared to other kids. Highly active though and always on the go. But he is also not super-independent - regularly wants to be carried/fed even if he can do these things himself.

At 3 my ds could do virtually none of the things you list. He could take off most of his clothes, climb into his own car seat and get onto the toilet using a step.

My HV pointed out that he was near the limit of 'normal', but that it wasn't something for us to worry about unless he showed no improvement over the next few months. Wait and see, in other words. One reason she and I felt we didn't need to be particularly concerned is that ds was and is very advanced in his speech and understanding.

At about 3y4m something seemed to 'click' and he started becoming more physically confident and adventurous, and over the past 6m (he turned 4 today) has almost caught up with his peers. He still cannot catch a ball, hop without holding on, or come downstairs foot-over-foot like us (holding on or otherwise).

DS who was 3 in August

1. Take off clothes - Yes, we endure a strip tease everynight before bed.

2. Put on clothes - If I do the first bit (ie put pants and trousers on but he can pull them up. Same with tops..sort of half and half with me helping.

3. Put on a coat - Yes, but can't do up zip

4. Ride a scooter - IFAIK he's never tried

5. Catch a ball - Sort of, if his hands/arms happen to be in the right place.

6. Brush teeth - I do them first then he finishs them off. ( I was under the impression that a child couldn't clean their teeth properley until they were 7???)

7. Climb into car seat - Yes, in and out.

8. Get onto toilet - nope, stands for wees and I have to help him up with poops. (he's really tall for his age as well and even with a step, can't sit far enough back with the child seat on.)

9. Use a knife and fork - fork and spoon

10. Walk upstairs and downstairs - yes

11. Make a sandcastle - I don't think he's ever tried

12. Toilet training - Did at 2.8 months, still has nappy at night, but doesn't use it, so this is the last pack.

13. Takes off shoes (and socks) - velcro fastened and has put them on once.

Duh- should be backward chaining not backward training!!! Sorry! If you type that into google you may get lots of tips anyway.

Hmm...well, I'm not panicking, though whoever thought this was getting a bit more urgent due to not too distant prospect of number 2 is right! I really thought a three and half year age gap would leave me a bit freer to deal with only one baby. From what I see around me as well as on this thread I do think he is fairly obviously behind on his motor skills. I will do the chaining thing Jimjams, sort of started it tonight actually, by coinicidence. Before his bath, I lifted up his top and took his arms out of the sleeves so he only had to pull it over his head, and nearly removed his socks (still a HUGE struggle to get them off - amazing). Will talk to GP next week about a referral but bear in mind that he may well change a lot over the next three to six months. If no luck with fork out £200 (gulp) for a private assessement. I don't suppose there is very much that can be done though. And I am grateful that he is lovely and bright, even if walking to the park is a never-ending torment with Britain's Slowest Moving Child. Ta all.

aloha -
my ds2 is also just three and can't do any of those things and I definitely agree most 3 year olds can do those things. Likewise, ds2 will poo or wee on the potty if he happens to be sitting there but he is just as likely to get off and do it on the floor. I really sympathise with you about that because I feel I should be making a big effort with potty training but my own eyes tell me he's not ready and there's no point stressing out about it if he isn't whatever anyone else says.

As I have said before, I also suspect my ds2 has dyspraxia. Unlike your ds he has been seen by everyone under the sun but we don?t actually have a diagnosis except that he is not thought to be autistic. He was discharged by OT/PT although they did say that he has lower than normal muscle tone. Do you know if your ds has low muscle tone - does he look kind of floppy if he runs, feel a bit "slippy" if you pick him up - it may be that this is mostly causing his problems rather than actual dyspraxia. I think you can just have benign hypotonia (low muscle tone) on its own. Does your ds have any of the other problems that go with dyspraxia e.g. my ds2 has poor motor planning - he is bad at finishing tasks because he can't organise where he is going with them, he has real problems with building bricks, shape sorters, jigsaws etc. Also his imaginative play is quite limited - it is appropriate play e.g. train crashes, animals splashing in the water but it doesn't go a lot beyond that, I think because he can't get his ideas organised sufficiently to do it. Does your ds have these sorts of problems which seem to be associated with dyspraxia or is it just literally his motor skills?

good point saker- when ds1 was assessed another child in the group had low muscle tone- he was 3- and was being assessed to see why he was behind physically.

Aloha - although on a different topic we were having concerns of a similar nature with our DS when he was 2.5. His problem was talking. We had so many people tell us 'he's just a bit slow', 'you can' compare him to DD - girls are always faster', 'wait 'til he starts nursery then he'll catch up', and so on...

My instinct was screaming by this stage that there was something 'not right' and I arranged for him to have an assessment. I am so glad that I did, there was a problem and 1.5 years later he is still receiving SALT sessions, but there have been dramatic improvements. I hate to think of where we might be now if we had left it and taken comfort from other peoples' advice.

I think that if you are concerned and your instinct is telling you that 'all is not quite right' then please book that assessment now. If you wait 3-6 months more that is stealing time from the pre-school years when it might be possible to make real progress through therapy and physio etc with him. I also think that when your new babe arrives it is quite likely that your DS will regress during that time, a lot of siblings do when new competition arrives on the scene If you wait until then it is possible that when the assessment is done they won't get a true picture of your DS's abilities.

I hate to be alarmist, and I'm in no way intending to suggest he is behind the norm (I'm afraid I looked at the list you posted and couldn't remember what either of my children were capable of at 3 - bad mum)!! However, go with your instinct, I think you'll find that you are the most reliable person to assess whether there is or isn't a problem!

ALoha,
from youre descriptions of your ds I've always thought he is quite like my DS (recently turned four)

1. Take off clothes - he can pull down trousers, take off shoes and socks, shrug off coats. He can't take his tops off though.

2. Put on clothes - not really, I still dress him. I think it's more laziness than inability though.

3. Put on a coat - almost. can take off but has difficulty putting on

4. Ride a scooter - do you mean a peddle trike? he refused to peddle until recently. He seems to have gotten the hang of it in the last few weeks though.

5. Catch a ball - recently yes, definitely not at three though.

6. Brush teeth - yes

7. Climb into car seat - yes he can get into his booster seat

8. Get onto toilet - yes with step

9. Use a knife and fork - he uses a spoon deftly

10. Walk upstairs and downstairs - yes

11. Make a sandcastle - with help

12. Toilet training - this took forever, I preservered before DS2 was born. It took a while, and like you I though he had no idea what he was doing, but he got the hang of and is very good now. still in a nappy at night though.

13. takes off shoes - yes, only recently though

but most of these he couldn't do when he turned three. I only worried when I compared him to other children, he was advanced in other ways. He's great at jigsaws, has fantastic concentration, will "read" books happily. Another thing he couldn't do was hold a crayon and was always reluctant to draw, prefering me to do it. Seems to be coming on there too now. The HV was never concerned either.

agree with soapbox- wish we'd done more with ds1 early on. (I was told he'll catch up blah blah blah, does it in his own time blah blah as well- which was why I was so pushy with ds2's speech problems. Tiny bit of therapy and he's now fine)

I also agree with Soapbox. My DD (5) has recently been diagnosed as having dyspraxia. I always felt she was slightly "out of synch" with other children and did go and see my HV when she was 3 - she told me everything was fine. I wish I'd pushed harder then and she could have started getting the help she gets now a bit earlier, as she's improved so much with it.

DD is 3 next week, and she can do most of those things, I thknks it because she has older siblings. Her speech isn't too great though.

Take off their clothes and/or put them on? Yes Put on their own shoes? yes with velco
Put on a coat? yes but can't zip it up
Pull their trousers down? yes if loose
Ride a scooter? not sure about that one
Catch a ball? yes
Brush their teeth?yes
Climb into their own car seat? yes
Get onto the toilet? yes
Make a sandcastle? yes
Use a knife and fork? yes
Walk upstairs like we do (ie not on all fours or by literally hauling himself up one step at a time by pulling on the bannister) and come downstairs facing forwards without holding on. yes and yes!

I also agree with Soapbox. My ds was diagnosed with verbal/oral dyspraxia and other motor skills problems when he was 4. I wish I had listened to my instincts and taken him to be assessed earlier, but everyone kept telling me he was fine and I believed them despite my instincts. I am still trying to get to the bottom of his difficulties, but I would say go with your instincts if you feel something is wrong. (sorry I can't remember what ds did when he was 3, but it wasn't very much at all, whereas I think dd1 could do all of the things you listed by the time she was 3)

DD can do most of the stuff you asked although i don't think she's tryed a scooter and cannot put socks on and won't even try anymore. (Must add, she CAN do them but that doesn't mean she does!)IYKWIM.
I agree with the last few posters that have said to go with your instincts though.

Aloha,

ds2, who will be 3 in December:

Take off their clothes and/or put them on? No

Put on their own shoes? No

Put on a coat? No, but can take it off.

Pull their trousers down? Staggeringly yes - can pull down, sit on potty and pull up again! This is very recent though - has only been toilet trained for about a month. His older brother wasn't toilet trained until after his 3rd birthday and I spent the summer before he started in reception class desperately trying to get him to pull up his pants as well as his trousers and get them up without the crotch being twisted halfway round the back of his bum

Ride a scooter? No, also can't pedal

Catch a ball? No

Brush their teeth? No - can suck toothpaste off the brush very successfully

Climb into their own car seat? No idea - if let loose into the back of the car, clambers over into driver's seat and tantrums about wanting to drive

Get onto the toilet? No

Make a sandcastle? Well, sort of...

Use a knife and fork? Can use a spoon and fork, but prefers fingers - only uses spoon properly for ice cream or yoghurt

Walk upstairs like we do? No. Climbs up on hands and knees, comes down on bum or hanging on to bannister with both hands

They all develop at their own pace - I am not concerned about ds2's development at all. I'm not going to tell you not to be - he's your son and you know him best, but he really doesn't sound at all unusual to me. And I would lay odds on him becoming far more independent once bubba no.2 arrives (after the inevitable short backslide into babyhood again - even my nearly 5 year old did that when his baby brother arrived).

HTH?

Saker, hard to tell with tasks - he does flit a bit and he actively avoids jigsaws. He can 'read' a book in a concentrated way though. I am supposed to see the HVs next week 'to get him weighed and measured'???? but will book in to the GP at the same time to talk about a referral. It can't hurt. I have considered low muscle tone and I suppose it is a possibility. He does get tired quite easily.
Kittypickle, what help do you get now?