Anyone actually seen their childs behaviour change after mmr?

[Ally24]

My son will have the mmr vaccine later this year just wondering if anyone has actually seen a definate change in behaviour of their child following it. Or is it all media hype??

I was trying to read everything but I might have missed something. It is a really interesting discussion. Loads of stuff I didn't know etc....

I didn't have any problems with letting my 3 kids having the MMR just thought autism was one of those things that can happen any way.

However, now it is looking more and more likely that DS2 is going to get a ASD dx. I don't know what to do about the booster? I feel scared that it might make him worse. Is this reality? If I have missed that discussion could someone point me in the right direction. Ta very much.

autism is one of those things that can happen anyway (well perhaps not just randomly- but it can happen for all sorts of reasons - about 90-95% not related to the MMR).

Children who developed autism & bowel problems following a measles containing vaccine (usually MMR or MR) were examined - 2 groups of 23 children (so not a huge study). One groups had been given 1 measles containing vaccine, 1 group 2.

The children given 2 doses did report an aggravation of symptoms following the 2nd dose- eg blood in the stool, foecal incontinence. No child from the one vaccine group had an aggravation of symptoms. When samples of gut were analysed acute inflammation was found in 61% of those who had recieved 2 measles containing vaccines versus, but only 13% of those who had received 1. ie acute inflammation was 4 to 4 times more likely in children who had receievd 2 jabs. These physical syptoms were commonly reported to be accompanied by behaviuoral regression.

Note though that these were not random autistic children- they were ones who had appeared to be affected by the MMR first time round.

I;d really recommend the Halvorsen book if you want to understand the pros and cons of MMR vs singles and when/what ages/boosters etc. He details the pros and cons very clearly.

Sorry to hijack here but Gess, does the book say anything about children with food allergies and immunisations? I think i read something somewhere about allergic children reacting more to all immunisations but didn't pay any attention at the time as i didn't think it was relevant and now i can't remember where i read it, or if i just made it up?

allergies in general and imms don't always go together. He doesn't give any specific advice for different groups- any advice he gives is for a general all round healthy child (other than to recommend some extra imms for children with health problems). He glosses over the rise in allergies etc and gives some maybes iyswim.

natasha campbell mcbride- who is a qualified dr (although perhaps nt practicing- not sure) has written a book on gut and psychology syndrome- she goes more into allergies etc- think its a bit of a thing of hers- I remember reading soething she'd written where she said children shouldn't be vaccinated durng an eczema outbreak for example.

As soon as I get the time I'm going to write to Richard halvorsen- would love to see if he will do one off consultations as would really like his opinion on ds2 and ds3 and what to give them if anything.

oh he does talk about reactions to aluminium but I can't remember exactly what he said!

Hijack - sorry

Guess - did your friends child's behaviour/health who had the chelation done change afterwards?

No changes. They did have slight fevers 7 days later but were fine overall.

I did see a programme on BBC a while ago with an expert on statistics looking at MMR and autism. They looked statistically at the age when children had the vaccine. And staistically they showed that yes some children would develop autism at that age. So parents would believe that it was linked in their child but really what was happening was a normal distribution of autism development. It just happened that their childs autism happened at the same time as the vaccination because as part of a normal distribution some children have to develop it at that time.

Doesnt mean that there is never any link but it put it majorly into context for me.

Also got leaflet when DD had vaccine and it says that 1 in 20 children who get measles sustain some adverse effects from measles. Measles is a horrible horrible disease. A relative is a GP and he says that he treats loads of people still with post measles health problems (people who had it before the MMr era)

So again from that I was determined that my kids would be protected from it.

Good to have different view points and experience on this thread. Thanks

Depends what you mean ali- she's still severely autistic but my friend knew something was up because she was majorly out of it- the blood test showed what the problem was. her lead levels (about 6 years later) are not back to normal and she has regular checks on them.

The NHS didn't really know what they were doing chelation wise though & used quite an old style chelating agent.

Mumfun- I know they say that parents just didn't notice the development of autism but I think its a really daft argument (and not usually put fowards by other parents- except mad dr fitzpatrick). Some parents notice problems from birth, some notice a regression. The children who regressed following MMR had very specific physical symptoms as well. Chronic diarrhoea/blood in the stool is hard to not notice.

IN fact only about 10% of parents report a regression following MMR. The people who have worked with the children - eg treating physical symptoms/ looking at guts etc reckon that about 7% of children with autism were MMR triggered. That's not very many mistaken parents. Plenty of other children will have regressed and people aren't automatically linking any regression to MMR (a number of examples on this thread wehre parents have noticed regression and not linked it to MMR). They're certainly not linking symptoms from birth with MMR either.

Gess, I just thought it was interesting . I had not heard that about heavy metals before, and vaguely wondered how I would know if it might be soemthing that affects as AS and had very bad excema as a baby and I was just wondereing if there may have been any connection with the jabs- the allergies and excema I mean.

Actually - isn't it chicken or egg? When I presented my son to his GP as he developed signs of autism the GP said categorically that it could not be autism as he had not had symptoms from birth.
The idea that children regress is a relatively new one. In fact as the investigations about what had happened to my boy advanced, the next line from the Doctor - one which is VERY common now -was that he always had been autistic but I had either not noticed or did not understand the symptoms.
I have frequently heard Drs saying that 18months to 2 years is when the autistic childs differences from the peer group become more noticable.
So yes. I have heard that too. But I tend to put it in the "mums are as thick as dog doo" box.
So now we know that a load of kids have suddenly and with no explaination regressed into profound autism, lets call it regressive autism and then we needn't ask why, we can just say - well shit happens!
I love science

Yes I call it the "mum's too thick to notice" theory as well. Too thick to notice the bowel problems that must have beeen there since birth as well then as they couldn't possibly have suddenly developed, too thick to realise that encephalitis in the days following a jab is entirely normal & could not possibly be related to the jab in any way.

When I link my son's regression with a live wild type virus no-one suggets I was too thick to notice that my son was autistic beforehand; they accept his regression as being triggered by the virus. It even gets noted in his medical records. And his regression was less physically obvious that many cases described in relation to MMR.

A lady I know is sure her severely autistic son (18) reacted to the mmr. He was verbal and well before and then regressed. She has since had her 2 dd's single vaccinated and no problems...

This may have been answered as I only read half this large thread but why can we not just offer the singles on the NHS?

I am not anti-vaccination but we didn?t get ds mmr'd due to our friend. I would happily pay the NHS to single vaccinate my son but when I asked the dr looked at me as if I was a mass murderer asking to be let out of prison.

My ds is now 3.5 and we still haven't had him vaccinated and I am wondering if it is now too late?

If my mother had viral encephalitis that damaged her eyesight would mmr-ing my son increase his risk of developing it -does anyone think?

Or would it just be a coincidence?

I don't know if I am in the thick camp!? My DS has had severe constipation since he was born. Is that what you mean by bowel problems. I have been back and forth to the Dr's but they only made sure he didn't have CF and keep prescribing Latulose even though he drinks plenty and does like fruit and some veg.

spacegirl is it your ds you're worried about re ASD? Gut issues do go with autism (whether MMR damaged or not- the difference (if there are gut issues) is in the mechanism that causes them).

Have you tried going gluten and or casein free? Although its not recommended officially as such we did a trial of switching from cows to goats milk (goats is easier to digest and has a different form of protein- guernsey cows are another possibility) and it made an enormous difference to ds3 (not ASD, but at 16 months wasn;t pointing etc). DS1 and ds3 are gluten free and ds2 was for a long time.

Simon Murch (I think) has done quite a bit with children with ASD and compaction (severe constipation). He's found on x rays that its common for autistic children to have severe foecal compaction. Unfortunately he's currently facing the GMC along with Andrew Wakefield so have no idea whether his work will continue. If you have a look at the Treating Autism website - you may find some tips- or you could join their forum and ask for advice on constipation- I remember reading quite a bit about how people have dealt with it (including some who saw Murch) but have no recollection what they actually used.

DS1 used to get very badly constipated. We found that a saccromyces supplement helped a lot - but I think its quite unusual to have such an easy time clearing it iyswim.

spacegirl - ask your GP for movicol. far far better than lactulose at getting them to poo.

Mine have all been single vaccinated due to friend having thier son MMR'd and regress within days. They did it late at 20 months as well so there was more evidence of development before hand to compare against ie wider vocab, better fine motor skills etc

Mine all reacted to the measles single jab with the boys worse than the girl. The were covered from head to toe.

However having refused the MMR for mine has caused me problems with the docs. They have now refused to do the pre school boosters for Polio etc and the Pneumo vaccine for dd which is illegal for them to do.

that's terrible slals- I thought docs had got over that now.

muppetgirl- sorry meant to reply before- there's a whole chaper in that book about who wanted the MMR and why the singles were no longer allowed having been used for many years. The often quoted bit about licensing is a bit of a red herring- the single jabs aren't licensed becauuse the drugs companies haven't renewed their licences. Recently I quoted a bit from a letter I'd receievd from the Dept of Health in about 2002 about that- if you search on my name you'll find it somewhere!

The only GP in the country who offers single jabs on the NHS is Richard Halvorsen- he offered them after reading the literature following the MMR fiasco- he expected to be reassured but was sufficiently concerned to decide he had to offer his patients a choice. His patients get them on the NHS, but he can't give them on the NHS to non-patients.

Cheers gess I think I am just getting confused by the thread, everyone is very knowledgeable. DS didn't really do any chatting or pointing before MMR so don't think it is to do with it. Just didn't know that that was a sign as he has always had eye contact in a really special way. Only feel wobbly about having the booster now as in process of being diagnosed. Didn't know about the bowel problem thing being connected to ASD. Will go and look at that website and think about swapping milk. Nothing has cured it so far.

In reply to OP - no change in behaviour whatsoever.

Does the fact that mmr vaccine is inadvisable in the case of egg allergy ever get mentioned by the doctors or nurses giving the jab?

Yep! If a child has an egg allergy it should be noted by the hospital/paediatrician anyway and arrangements made for the jab to be given on a paediatric ward if needed.

Not all the time, ds has a severe egg and dairy allergy and i've been told he doesn't need to go to the hospital as the vaccine is stored differently now, and the childrens nurse who administers it is capable of handling any allergic reaction.

I'm still on the fence, missed two appointments because of illness and can;t decide what to do about the next one.

How do you get single vaccinations? Do you pay the doc to do them or go elsewhere?